IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-10-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:01 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:00:06 [Michael]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:00:27 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
14:00:34 [Zakim]
+??P2
14:01:05 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
14:01:14 [Michael]
zakim, ??P2 is Ken_Kipness
14:01:14 [Zakim]
+Ken_Kipness; got it
14:01:29 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson
14:01:39 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
14:01:42 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:01:50 [wendy]
wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:11 [Zakim]
+??P9
14:02:15 [ben]
zakim, ??P9 is Ben
14:02:15 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
14:02:29 [Zakim]
+Wendy
14:03:14 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
14:03:25 [james]
james has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:26 [Zakim]
+James_Craig
14:05:38 [james]
zakim, I am James_Craig
14:05:38 [Zakim]
ok, james, I now associate you with James_Craig
14:08:02 [wendy]
Ben's list: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/10/06-checklist-discussion.html
14:08:29 [wendy]
questions from: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0008.html
14:08:38 [wendy]
1.) Is each checklist item in the list necessary?
14:08:40 [wendy]
2.) Is each item required for conformance? (at what level? always?)
14:08:41 [wendy]
3.) What dependencies exist between the items?
14:08:43 [wendy]
4.) Are the items in the list sufficient?
14:08:44 [wendy]
5.) What's missing?
14:09:17 [wendy]
[ben taking notes w/in his document]
14:16:50 [wendy]
identified several issues in general to make them more specific to techniques rather than general discussions of the issues.
14:19:02 [wendy]
prioritizatin issue?
14:20:07 [wendy]
Adjacent image and text links that point to the same resource are combined. (HTML 9.3) - feel it is a priority 2 but maps to a level 1
14:23:02 [wendy]
what about drop mapping to 1.1 and leave only mapping to 3.2?
14:25:40 [wendy]
The alt attribute is used on each image element. (HTML 10.1)
14:25:52 [wendy]
relationship of checklist to test suite - will the checklist link to test suite?
14:26:04 [wendy]
b/c alt attribute could be present, but not pass the test suite.
14:26:38 [wendy]
test suite: IMG element must have an ALT attribute.
14:26:52 [wendy]
however, perhaps we don't require "ALT text should be short."
14:27:10 [wendy]
a checklist item about the quality of alt-text that points to these other tests
14:28:40 [wendy]
quality - provided by the general technique
14:29:22 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
14:30:23 [Zakim]
+??P13
14:31:52 [wendy]
if follow the techniques should pass the test suite
14:33:39 [wendy]
should be stated that techniques are illustrative examples such that if employs somehow more likely to satisfy related success criterion as measured by tests in test suite.
14:33:49 [wendy]
(more likely to conform than if don't follow techniques)
14:34:34 [wendy]
we've been cautious about saying b/c there can be alternate paths than following our techniques, although we think our techniques is the best path
14:37:47 [wendy]
action: tim draft paragraph for intro of each techniques document that says something along the lines of, "techniques are illustrative examples such that if employs somehow more likely to satisfy related success criterion as measured by tests in test suite...and there can be alternate paths than following our techniques, although we think our techniques is the best path...and if find other path, let us know so can include"
14:41:38 [wendy]
The body of each object element includes a text alternative. (HTML 10.5) - split into 2 techniques, one for "future" one for "today" "future" techniques become optional.
14:42:08 [wendy]
action: michael split HTML:10.5 into 2 techniques, a future and a today.
14:42:59 [wendy]
today: descriptions are provided ...info about how to provide other than in the body of object since support for object is buggy or non-existent
14:45:32 [wendy]
combo checklists or html-only/general-only?
14:46:06 [wendy]
HTML and CSS are used in place of text in images. (HTML 10.12) - is there a level that we are requiring css for conformance?
14:49:41 [Zakim]
+??P1
14:51:57 [wendy]
fyi: from WCAG 1.0 3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. [Priority 2]
14:53:08 [wendy]
had comments that should be priority 1.
14:53:21 [wendy]
argument is that it is a user agent issue: if have alt-text should be able to magnify
14:55:06 [wendy]
HTML and CSS are used in place of text in images. (HTML 10.12) - required for AA conformance (not A). what do about mapping of the technique to 2 level 1 criteria?
14:56:57 [wendy]
future technique html&svg?
14:57:16 [wendy]
issue with licensing issues with fonts
14:58:18 [wendy]
webfonts work in svg
15:04:16 [wendy]
debate about pushing html/css for images with text to AAA conformance vs AA
15:06:23 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
15:06:59 [wendy]
action: ben and someone else? go through and propose priorities/conformance levels with different tests
15:07:06 [wendy]
actions?
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
sees 3 open action items:
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tim draft paragraph for intro of each techniques document that says something along the lines of, "techniques are illustrative examples such that if employs somehow more likely to satisfy related success criterion as measured by tests in test suite...and there can be alternate paths than following our techniques, although we think our techniques is the best path...and if find other path, let us know so can include" [1]
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T14-37-47
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael split HTML:10.5 into 2 techniques, a future and a today. [2]
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-08
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and someone else? go through and propose priorities/conformance levels with different tests [3]
15:07:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T15-06-59
15:10:14 [wendy]
no checklist item for short alt-text?
15:10:38 [wendy]
bc see that as a test that people can use to improve the quality of alt-text, but not something can require for conformance.
15:11:05 [wendy]
mc some but not all of the tests would appear to be candidates for checklist items - how do we decide which ones? when there is more detail to be had how to we represent that effectively?
15:14:16 [wendy]
160 items in this list, this is just for 2 guidelines. a "kitchen sink" checklist would be huge
15:14:37 [wendy]
cr what is the checklist? checking for just the major things? commonly occur? only level A?
15:15:04 [wendy]
bc it is a way to make a conformance statement.
15:15:26 [wendy]
mc checklist items aggregate tests for purposes of checking things off.
15:15:43 [wendy]
bc text alts are appropriate, links to a series of tests
15:16:00 [wendy]
cr if checklist used to test conformance and make statement based on - be same as test suite
15:16:14 [wendy]
cr "does conform using checklist does not conform using test suite"
15:16:34 [wendy]
mc checklist are aggregations of data rather than being different data
15:17:31 [wendy]
mc if say "alt text is quality" then implies all of those tests. diff from test suite in presentation not substance
15:18:43 [wendy]
cr re: "short alt text" - is there something in checklist at all?
15:19:21 [wendy]
bc wrt questions of appropriateness/quality, should have techniques that discuss.
15:21:44 [wendy]
wac 2 things: work on general, proposal/example aggregate checklist item so we can see how fits together
15:23:53 [wendy]
action: ben and john brainstorm about general techniques and issues with general techniques fulfilling needs as related to checklists (issues raised in this call)
15:24:28 [james]
q+ to propose another checklist item (after this topic is finished)
15:24:46 [wendy]
ack james
15:24:46 [Zakim]
James_Craig, you wanted to propose another checklist item (after this topic is finished)
15:24:54 [james]
15:24:54 [james]
All editable form elements (input, select, textarea) other than hidden elements must be associated with a label element or must have a non-empty title attribute. Note: "editable" form elements do not include buttons or hiddent inputs.
15:25:32 [james]
correction: All editable form elements (input, select, textarea) must be associated with a label element or must have a non-empty title attribute. Note: "editable" form elements do not include buttons or hiddent inputs.
15:25:44 [wendy]
mc there are html techs that speak to that, but probably not associated with 1.1 or 1.3
15:26:08 [wendy]
bg put under 1.3?
15:27:13 [wendy]
cr it is in the test suite (explicit label)
15:27:23 [wendy]
jc instances where label is not as appropriate and title suffic
15:27:27 [wendy]
s/suffice
15:27:33 [wendy]
mc there is a bug about that. hasn't been resolved.
15:28:48 [wendy]
next week: th/table, img and alt-text
15:31:29 [wendy]
chris' mapping (tests to success criteria)
15:32:41 [wendy]
checklist: more discussion next week. big issue for f2f
15:33:37 [wendy]
internal drafts out this friday
15:34:10 [wendy]
public drafts beginning of november
15:34:17 [wendy]
please review
15:35:48 [Zakim]
-Becky_Gibson
15:35:49 [Zakim]
-James_Craig
15:35:50 [Zakim]
-Chris_Ridpath
15:35:51 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
15:35:52 [Zakim]
-Ken_Kipness
15:35:52 [Zakim]
-Ben
15:35:53 [Zakim]
-David_MacDonald
15:35:55 [Zakim]
-Wendy
15:35:56 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:35:57 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Ken_Kipness, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald
15:36:00 [james]
james has left #wai-wcag
15:36:07 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items:
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tim draft paragraph for intro of each techniques document that says something along the lines of, "techniques are illustrative examples such that if employs somehow more likely to satisfy related success criterion as measured by tests in test suite...and there can be alternate paths than following our techniques, although we think our techniques is the best path...and if find other path, let us know so can include" [1]
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T14-37-47
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael split HTML:10.5 into 2 techniques, a future and a today. [2]
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-08
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and someone else? go through and propose priorities/conformance levels with different tests [3]
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T15-06-59
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben and john brainstorm about general techniques and issues with general techniques fulfilling needs as related to checklists (issues raised in this call) [4]
15:36:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/06-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-53