13:57:25 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 13:57:25 SW_BPD()10:00AM has now started 13:57:35 +??P2 13:57:37 Meeting: SemWeb Best Practices and Deployment WG 13:57:49 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0095.html 13:57:53 Previous: 2004-09-16 http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-swbpd 13:58:23 +??P4 13:58:26 +Ralph 13:58:27 David_Wood has joined #swbp 13:59:13 +??P7 13:59:13 zakim, ??p2 is PhilT 13:59:17 +David_Wood 13:59:19 +PhilT; got it 13:59:30 zakim, ??p7 is Benjamin_Booth 13:59:30 +Benjamin_Booth; got it 13:59:55 Zakim, ??P4 is Alistair 13:59:55 +Alistair; got it 13:59:58 zakim, Benjamin_Booth is really Benjamin_Nguyen 13:59:58 +Benjamin_Nguyen; got it 14:00:20 + +1.703.326.aaaa 14:00:33 +Evan_Wallace 14:00:39 zakim, aaaa i sDarren_Govoni 14:00:39 I don't understand 'aaaa i sDarren_Govoni', Ralph 14:00:46 zakim, aaaa is Darren_Govoni 14:00:46 +Darren_Govoni; got it 14:00:46 ChrisW has joined #swbp 14:00:47 Zakim, mute Alistair 14:00:47 Alistair should now be muted 14:00:57 +DanBri 14:01:48 + +1.914.671.aabb 14:02:05 zakim, aabb is Chris_Welty 14:02:05 +Chris_Welty; got it 14:02:22 Regrets: Guus, Tom Adams, Gary Ng 14:03:23 -PhilT 14:04:27 +??P2 14:05:12 +JosD 14:05:15 zakim, ??p2 is Phil_Tetlow 14:05:15 +Phil_Tetlow; got it 14:05:22 zakim, pick a victim 14:05:22 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose danbri 14:05:33 +??P27 14:05:50 +Tom_Baker (was ??P27) 14:06:16 zakim, take up agendum 1 14:06:16 agendum 1. "Administrivia" taken up [from Ralph] 14:06:21 review of 16sept minutes 14:06:25 anyone review them? 14:06:31 +Natasha_Noy 14:06:37 I had a look 14:06:37 agenda+ Community Feedback 14:06:40 http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-swbpd 14:06:49 Natasha has joined #swbp 14:06:58 agenda+ Web Architecture Draft 14:07:16 agenda+ ODM/UML Ontology Profile 14:07:17 ben(?): i looked, had some correections to send 14:07:31 david: ralph fixed some issue w/ the action items 14:07:38 Tbaker has joined #swbp 14:07:38 s/ben/evan/ 14:07:55 agenda+ Comments to DAWG on RDF Data Access, XQuery, Rules 14:08:00 agenda+ TF Updates 14:08:11 +??P3 14:08:15 s/ben(?)/Evan 14:08:19 ...minutes not accepted; pending evan's review 14:08:23 evan not me 14:08:30 david: next meeting ... 14:08:39 regrets for 14 Oct: JosD 14:08:40 i will have to send regrets for oct 14 as well - dc2004 in shanghai 14:08:46 Agenda for this meeting: http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-swbpd 14:08:59 DanBri: regrets for 14 Oct 14:09:06 zakim, ??p3 is Jeremy 14:09:06 +Jeremy; got it 14:09:11 oct 14, 14:09:11 regrets from danbri (at dublin core) 14:09:11 jjc joins, notes regrets from Brian McBride 14:09:31 proposal is 1800UTC 14 Oct 14:09:36 2nd'd 14:10:02 14 Oct 1800 UTC is what http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/ shows 14:10:08 JosD has joined #swbp 14:10:09 today's agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0095.htm 14:10:15 er http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0095.html 14:10:32 Thanks, danbri 14:10:37 Fabien has joined #swbp 14:11:07 david: jeremy, any organizational issues re F2F? Hotel? 14:11:14 jjc: people liked the one we used for webont 14:11:39 ...i'll try list some nearby more upmarket hotels too 14:12:39 action: jjc to update f2f by tuesday next 14:13:03 jjc: re meeting rooms, i assume we want breakout space, and 10-15 attendees 14:13:15 ...i'm reserving same amount of space we had for webont, larger wg 14:13:16 s/update f2f/update f2f Web page/ 14:13:21 ...to give us flexibility for breakouts etc 14:13:43 jjc: no prob w/ reserving space 14:14:09 ralph: I guess around 2-3 breakout rooms 14:14:19 ...on this topic, i have an action to make a reg form 14:14:32 Brian McBride just sent regrets 14:14:34 ...done, just needs confirmation from jjc re exact fields (dietary prefs etc) 14:14:59 ...good to have that info before form starts being used 14:15:56 q: hotel chosen yet? 14:16:01 Ralph, you wanted to take up ACTION: Ralph create a WBS registration page for the FtF 14:16:09 (sorry am really bad at voice-recognition...) 14:16:16 cheap but nice 14:16:26 jjc: chosenish, HP would organise transport to site 14:16:42 jjc: are nicer hotels nearer town, but further away 14:16:55 -Benjamin_Nguyen 14:17:31 vircuser has joined #swbp 14:17:31 zakim, next agendum 14:17:31 agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from Ralph] 14:17:40 david: a number of new actions at last call... 14:17:41 +??P7 14:17:56 jjc: i've done it tho didn't see msg from guus 14:17:56 zakim, ??p7 is probably Benjamin_Nguyen 14:17:56 +Benjamin_Nguyen?; got it 14:18:03 yes sorry 14:18:17 completed: Guus ping Jeremy about XSD actions 14:18:23 action: BenB read ODM documents 14:18:35 action: Guus contact Pat and Jos about Web Arch comments 14:18:37 [/me wonders why Jeremy's irc client identifies him as 'vircuser'] 14:18:54 action: Guus send e-mail about telecon attendance, as it's getting low 14:18:58 +??P36 14:19:14 completed: Guus send email to Brian and Jeremy to create a local information page for FtF 14:19:47 action: Ralph create a WBS registration page for the FtF 14:19:49 zakim, ??p36 is Alan_Rector 14:19:49 +Alan_Rector; got it 14:20:11 completed: Ralph post his attendance analysis ('good standing' record) to the list 14:20:16 (but hasn't shown in list yet) 14:20:23 s/completed/continued/ 14:20:35 I need to find out why my post didn't make it to the list 14:20:41 action: Ralph post his attendance analysis ('good standing' record) to the list (done, but msg needs to get to list) 14:21:17 action: gary ng review ODM 14:21:23 action: chris welty review ODM 14:21:29 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0104.html Telecon participation record 14:21:32 [/me reposts] 14:21:33 completed: Guus ask the WG for a second reviewer for ODM 14:22:52 [I nominate DanBri to help TomB w/wiki] 14:23:16 I could also help tom if needed 14:24:27 ALR has joined #swbp 14:24:40 completed: TomB nudge VM TF participants to provide feedback 14:25:06 action: Ralph to ask WG for feedback on requirement to embed RDF/XML markup in an XHTML document 14:25:23 completed: Jeremy to review XSD FNO and SCD documents. 14:25:39 completed: Jeremy to add XSD FNO and SCD documents to TF reference list. 14:25:44 danbri, can we talk on the phone? 14:25:49 action: Jeremy to check semantics on DAWG use of XSD in abstract query model. 14:26:07 (Tom, perhaps tommorrow?) 14:26:18 zakim, take up next agendum 14:26:18 agendum 3. "Community Feedback" taken up [from Ralph] 14:26:26 [[ 14:26:27 David's message: 14:26:27 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0043.html 14:26:27 Continued discussion to focus on actions/plans required, if any 14:26:29 ]] 14:26:42 david: less discussion than i'd hoped re direction, desire docs etc. 14:27:00 ...one of my goals for the f2f which i want to get written up to the list, is choice of docs to produce in 2005. 14:27:26 ...would be nice to have consensus driven approach if poss 14:28:09 Jeremy to review XSD FNO and SCD documents. urls: 14:28:24 darren: is tag comment opportunity closed? 14:28:30 david: yes, but can still send 14:28:34 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0090.html 14:28:43 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0093.html 14:28:44 david: jos? 14:28:52 zakim, next agendum 14:28:52 agendum 4. "Web Architecture Draft" taken up [from Ralph] 14:28:56 jos: i've seen draft but didn't get time/resources to comment 14:28:59 thanks ralph 14:29:02 Jeremy to add XSD FNO and SCD documents to TF reference list. url: 14:29:08 jos: i'm v fine w/ that doc btw 14:29:09 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0100.html 14:29:18 david: pls send that to the list! 14:29:20 jos: will do 14:29:24 tomorrow is fine - any time 14:29:53 Jeremy to check semantics on DAWG use of XSD in abstract query model. url: 14:30:00 completed: action: Ralph post his attendance analysis ('good standing' record) to the list (done, but msg needs to get to list) 14:30:00 [15:20] * RRSAgent records action 6 14:30:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0098.html 14:30:11 david: do we know if pat will review webarch draft? 14:30:16 (nobody knows) 14:30:24 ralph: I assume our opoprtunty to comment on that is closed 14:30:36 zakim, take up next agendum 14:30:36 agendum 5. "ODM/UML Ontology Profile" taken up [from Ralph] 14:30:38 skipped. 14:30:39 zakim, take up next agendum 14:30:39 agendum 5 was just opened, danbri_scribe 14:30:39 (that == the Web Architecture document) 14:30:45 zakim, close agendum 5 14:30:45 agendum 5 closed 14:30:46 I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 14:30:47 6. Comments to DAWG on RDF Data Access, XQuery, Rules [from Ralph] 14:30:50 zakim, next agendum 14:30:50 agendum 5 was just opened, Ralph 14:30:57 zakim, take up agendum 6 14:30:57 agendum 6. "Comments to DAWG on RDF Data Access, XQuery, Rules" taken up [from Ralph] 14:31:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0097.html 14:31:20 david: I'd like to ask for a 2nd reviewer for doc, per http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0049.html 14:31:32 Zakim, unmute Alistair 14:31:32 Alistair should no longer be muted 14:31:47 ralph: we were asked whether a wg comment needed 14:32:00 ...gary in his msg proposed Qs for the WG to consider to decide whether to comment 14:32:36 q+ to note that I've responded to some of these issues on SWCG and to dawg feedback list, individually rather than as a BP thing 14:32:58 jjc: Individuals have expertise, eg. we have some via jena, wg as a whole may not need 14:33:02 darren: i could ... 14:33:20 action? or discuss 1st? 14:33:33 q- 14:34:33 action: darren review DAWG use cases document 14:34:35 q+ 14:35:11 ralph: this aggendum orig came from chair of dawg to address two questions 14:36:01 action: danbri circulate links for his existing feedback/review to dawg 14:36:32 [ALL] RDF Data Access, XQuery, rules 14:36:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0049.html 14:36:44 jjc: like danbri, i sent personal comments direct to wg (on diff topic to those invited in danc's msg) 14:37:09 zakim, take up next agendum 14:37:09 agendum 7. "TF Updates" taken up [from Ralph] 14:37:52 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0061.html Request from DAWG Chair 14:38:07 All TF leaders: please also reflect on status of FTF goals: 14:38:07 Background: Guus' proposals: 14:38:07 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0109.html 14:38:08 7.1 OEP (Deb) 14:38:14 7.2 PORT (Alistair) 14:38:18 7.3 WordNet (Aldo) 14:38:22 7.4 XML Schema datatypes (Jeremey) 14:38:26 7.5 Vocabulary management (TomB) 14:38:32 Darren, thanks for offer to do another review of DAWG Use Cases; see msg 0109 cited above for what specifically the DAWG requested of us 14:38:43 natasha: on OEP 14:38:43 ...some discussion of future notes 14:38:43 ...deb noted that few members will be at the f2f 14:38:43 ...so if you can schedule so west coast us folks can join by telephone, would be appreciated. 14:39:05 david: we've not fixed an agenda yet. but aim to allow OEP slot to suit telecon. 14:39:15 ...some of us are prepared to make ourselves available in evening for this 14:39:22 Alistair, on PORT TF 14:39:27 al: i've not posted a summary 14:39:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0041.html 14:39:39 ...re f2f goals, see this msg 14:39:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0079.html 14:40:03 pls. send comments to list 14:40:04 http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core/spec/ 14:40:10 ...i've put together a framework for first note 14:40:14 the skos core vocab specification 14:40:20 ...first note from the PORT TF 14:40:53 ...script generated from the rdf schema 14:40:57 ...there as a preview 14:41:06 ...comments on structure or formal aspects would be appreciated 14:41:25 ...as far as contnt goes, this doc isn't ready to announce publically, as the structure of the schema likely to change over next 3 weeks or so 14:41:41 ...also ongoing discussion going on around the skoscore vocab 14:41:48 ...been proposals and discussions recently 14:41:52 (this on public-esw-thes) 14:42:01 ...trying to link rdf and thes 14:42:10 ...hopefully will reach consensus on those proposals 14:42:18 ...then announce it as fairly stable 14:42:37 zakim, who's talking? 14:42:44 alan? 14:42:47 Ralph, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeremy (31%), Alistair (4%), David_Wood (30%), JosD (3%), Alan_Rector (56%) 14:43:17 al: we've just got into this issue of linking thesauri to ontologies on the public-esw-thes list, pls join in if you have something to contribute 14:43:40 david: are you comfortable w/ what you have planned between now and f2f 14:43:41 q+ 14:43:56 al: working on a guide too, using wiki 14:43:58 ack danbri 14:44:34 http://esw.w3.org/topic/SkosCoreGuideToc 14:45:09 danbri: blah blah blah 14:45:16 al: we've hit a serious difference of perspective here 14:45:41 ...trying to find a way to make progress, for those outside the RDF scene, they dont appreciate some of the RDF subtleties 14:45:48 danbri: yup 14:46:09 al: if we can get progress, and bridge the gap between the perspectives, ... 14:46:33 ralph: looks like interesting piece of work 14:46:45 al: is getting into the business of migrating thesauri to rdf/owl 14:47:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-esw-thes/2004Sep/0067.html is my long attempt to explain 14:47:28 ralph: see irc log for url for darren 14:47:30 Ralph, you wanted to comment to Darren 14:47:55 danbri: re port, some of us met up f2f this week, as part of swad-europe team meeting 14:48:04 Jeremy , re XSD TF 14:48:15 ...aiming for draft of a 1st WD 14:48:20 ... tf description already specs it out 14:48:36 Zakim, mute Alistair 14:48:36 Alistair should now be muted 14:48:40 ... in particular, sketch solutions to the problems 14:48:47 ...and progress those during f2f 14:49:00 ...other thing that's relevant, Q of what participation we seek from non-WG members 14:49:17 ...having read the XML Schema WG's materials, should probably go back and invite them to participate 14:49:23 ...and also xml query and xslt wgs 14:49:34 ...as suggested by xml schema folk 14:49:58 ...which makes sense, issue of equality between values between xml schema'd types, is addressed to some extent by xpath 2 operators 14:50:13 Regrets+ BenB, BenA, Brian 14:50:14 david: do you get sense that xml schema wg is catchup up / supplanting this TF's work? 14:50:45 jjc: not really. everything they've asked me to read has been pertinent. but doesn't change need for an easy to read, single shot doc, for people in the sw re where next in datatyping 14:51:14 ...since we stop short in current rdf/owl recs of both userdefined types and formal semantics for them 14:51:27 ...since those things partially available elsewhere, ... 14:51:39 ...alll the stuff i've been asked to read is still in WD form 14:51:49 ...the SW community, if they read and understood these WDs, might be happy 14:52:05 ...functions and operators, for eg., as far as i can tell.... suggests that numerics should be compared as numbers 14:52:22 ...but for instance, hex-encoded and base64 binary, are necessarily different, even if they encode the same bianry 14:52:48 ...a choice needs to be made 14:53:38 ...if we work relatively quickly, we'd be in time to reflect any disquiet back while xml specs are in WD form 14:53:47 david: i have an action to talk to jjc re f2f goals 14:54:07 ...looking at guus's goals, do you have a comfort level before the f2f that you can meet them? 14:54:30 jjc: [missed point] 14:54:46 ...what i've reviewed and posted will help others here do more reviewing 14:54:51 david: anyone signed up to do that? 14:54:54 jjc: volunteers? 14:55:09 ...either the XML Schema component descriptions, or the Functions and Operators doc? 14:55:47 jjc: note comes after f2f, need sketch before 14:55:56 jjc: i can take an action to make a first cut pre-f2f 14:56:31 action: jjc make a first sketch of short guideline note for using xml schema datatypes (in rdf/owl) 14:57:00 q+ to solicit a new scribe (I'll send minutes tho); I need to leave. 14:57:12 i'll do it 14:57:17 q- 14:57:21 thanks ChrisW 14:57:54 rrsagent, please make log publically visible 14:57:54 I'm logging. I don't understand 'please make log publically visible', danbri_laptop. Try /msg RRSAgent help 14:58:42 Agenda moves to VM 14:59:39 jjc: send message to XSLT and Xquery wg? 14:59:46 Re: topic 7.5: no further comments. Will follow up with DanBri on setting up Wiki and related process. 14:59:51 + +1.441.179.aacc 15:00:09 -bristol 15:00:32 dwood enourages jjc to do so 15:00:49 action: jjc to send message to XSLT wg and query 15:01:15 action: jjc to send message to xmls wg 15:01:32 agenda now moves to VM 15:01:47 tomb: no further comments, will follow up with danbri 15:02:00 [RDF-XHTML] TF update 15:02:00 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0072.html 15:02:06 agenda moves to rdf xhtml 15:03:03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Sep/0102.html 15:03:32 benA not here. Had joint telecon with xhtml wg. 15:03:44 http://hades.mn.aptest.com/htmlwg/xhtml-m12n-2/mod-meta.html#s_metamodule 15:03:57 ralph: no comments back from html wg. Found editors wd (above) 15:04:38 dated 9/15 (after joint telecon) but no changes other than including text of email. So not sure where it is. 15:05:08 ben has had conversations about navigational links and semantic ones. 15:05:19 other TF members should get involved 15:05:59 ben concerned if xhtml 2.0 will be sufficiently relevant to "us" in time. 15:07:29 ralph things technically they are close but editorially need work 15:07:42 ^things^thinks^ 15:08:02 how critical is rdf xml syntax in this picture 15:08:40 dwood agrees we can't ignore xhtml but isn't sufficient 15:08:45 agenda moves to adtf 15:08:51 ralph agrees w/david 15:09:20 libby will summarize before f2f progress has been slow because not much time 15:10:18 Sorry I have to leave, bye folks. 15:10:24 -Benjamin_Nguyen? 15:10:57 agenda moves to tutorial page 15:11:19 Link in agenda - please send suggestions to list 15:11:33 agenda moves to AOB 15:11:49 chrisw will you action me to send that note? 15:12:04 action: libby to summarize ADTF before f2f 15:12:15 thanks :) 15:13:01 Hotel info is the same as on http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/jjc/webont/webontOct.html 15:13:11 dwood solicting community feedback for wg expectations 15:13:45 [David refers to SICoP - Semantic Interoperability Community of Practice http://www.web-services.gov/ ] 15:13:58 wants to strike a balance between guidance for practitioners and "plugging holes" 15:14:50 action: PhilT to summarize interests from UK National Govt 15:17:10 dwood is generally against the idea of observers 15:17:23 -Evan_Wallace 15:17:25 resolved: no observers at FTF 15:17:39 -Natasha_Noy 15:17:39 dwood closes meeting 15:17:42 -Alan_Rector 15:17:44 -David_Wood 15:17:45 -Tom_Baker 15:17:46 -Phil_Tetlow 15:17:46 -Darren_Govoni 15:17:47 -Alistair 15:17:48 -JosD 15:17:49 bye all 15:17:49 -Jeremy 15:17:51 -Chris_Welty 15:17:54 -Ralph 15:17:55 -libby 15:17:57 SW_BPD()10:00AM has ended 15:17:58 Attendees were Ralph, David_Wood, PhilT, Alistair, Benjamin_Nguyen, +1.703.326.aaaa, Evan_Wallace, Darren_Govoni, danbri, libby, +1.914.671.aabb, Chris_Welty, JosD, Phil_Tetlow, 15:18:00 ... Tom_Baker, Natasha_Noy, Jeremy, Benjamin_Nguyen?, Alan_Rector 15:18:04 ralph? 15:18:14 yes, Chris? 15:18:27 do I need to do anything to get the IRC log published as the minutes? 15:18:58 I think DanBri as initial scribe has that action 15:19:05 ok 15:19:07 yep he said he'd do it chrisw 15:19:10 ideally a summary of the irc log with a pointer to the log is sent to the list 15:19:43 ok, bye 15:21:01 rrsagent, bye 15:21:01 I see 17 open action items: 15:21:01 ACTION: jjc to update f2f by tuesday next [1] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-12-39 15:21:01 ACTION: BenB read ODM documents [2] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-18-23 15:21:01 ACTION: Guus contact Pat and Jos about Web Arch comments [3] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-18-35 15:21:01 ACTION: Guus send e-mail about telecon attendance, as it's getting low [4] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-18-54 15:21:01 ACTION: Ralph create a WBS registration page for the FtF [5] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-19-47 15:21:01 ACTION: Ralph post his attendance analysis ('good standing' record) to the list (done, but msg needs to get to list) [6] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-20-41 15:21:01 ACTION: gary ng review ODM [7] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-21-17 15:21:01 ACTION: chris welty review ODM [8] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-21-23 15:21:01 ACTION: Ralph to ask WG for feedback on requirement to embed RDF/XML markup in an XHTML document [9] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-25-06 15:21:01 ACTION: Jeremy to check semantics on DAWG use of XSD in abstract query model. [10] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-25-49 15:21:01 ACTION: darren review DAWG use cases document [11] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-34-33 15:21:01 ACTION: danbri circulate links for his existing feedback/review to dawg [12] 15:21:01 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/30-swbp-irc#T14-36-01 15:21:01 ACTION: jjc make a first sketch of short guideline note for using xml schema datatypes (in rdf/owl) [13] 15:21:01