IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-29
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:59:49 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:59:55 [Michael]
- rrsagent, make logs world
- 14:00:23 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
- 14:00:32 [Zakim]
- +Jenae_Andershonis
- 14:00:40 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 14:01:31 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:01:36 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:01:47 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P14 is Ken_Kipness
- 14:01:47 [Zakim]
- +Ken_Kipness; got it
- 14:02:14 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:26 [Zakim]
- +Don_Evans
- 14:02:29 [Zakim]
- +??P25
- 14:02:35 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P25 is Ben
- 14:02:35 [Zakim]
- +Ben; got it
- 14:02:43 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:02:59 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:59 [wendy]
- zakim, drop wendy
- 14:02:59 [Zakim]
- Wendy is being disconnected
- 14:03:00 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 14:03:18 [Zakim]
- +??P21
- 14:03:20 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:03:34 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P21 is Chris_Ridpath
- 14:03:34 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath; got it
- 14:03:40 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:03:49 [Zakim]
- +Becky_Gibson
- 14:03:50 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:03:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Jenae_Andershonis, Ken_Kipness, Michael_Cooper, Don_Evans, Ben, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson
- 14:05:13 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 14:05:23 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (10%), Chris_Ridpath (19%), Becky_Gibson (30%)
- 14:05:29 [Becky]
- zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
- 14:05:29 [Zakim]
- ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
- 14:05:39 [wendy]
- zakim, mute Chris
- 14:05:39 [Zakim]
- Chris_Ridpath should now be muted
- 14:05:47 [wendy]
- zakim, unmute Chris
- 14:05:47 [Zakim]
- Chris_Ridpath should no longer be muted
- 14:06:19 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 14:06:29 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jenae_Andershonis (4%), Ken_Kipness (37%), Michael_Cooper (28%), Chris_Ridpath (9%)
- 14:06:38 [wendy]
- zakim, drop Ken
- 14:06:38 [Zakim]
- Ken_Kipness is being disconnected
- 14:06:39 [Zakim]
- -Ken_Kipness
- 14:07:06 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 14:07:16 [Michael]
- zakim, ??P14 is Ken_Kipness
- 14:07:16 [Zakim]
- +Ken_Kipness; got it
- 14:08:13 [wendy]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0763.html
- 14:08:35 [wendy]
- policies for contributions of test cases: http://www.w3.org/2004/06/29-testcases.html
- 14:27:36 [ChrisR]
- QA Handbook re acquiring test suite: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-qa-handbook-20040830/#Acquire
- 14:27:47 [Michael]
- Questions:
- 14:28:03 [Michael]
- Need to come up with a formal set of steps to transfer test suite
- 14:28:16 [Michael]
- Do we need to follow the QA process?
- 14:28:55 [Michael]
- How will test suite be maintained after transfer?
- 14:29:37 [Michael]
- Does test suite even have to be on W3C site?
- 14:29:51 [Michael]
- Partial Answers:
- 14:30:04 [Michael]
- We probably still should follow QA process to make sure we don't miss things
- 14:30:14 [Michael]
- Give editor access to Chris et al to maintain tests after transfer
- 14:30:26 [Michael]
- It would be good for tests to be on W3C site
- 14:31:30 [wendy]
- hey michael, i can take over minutes - just wanted to get that email out.
- 14:31:35 [Michael]
- ok
- 14:32:01 [wendy]
- cr agreeing on tests. have posted 6 to the list. there hasn't been much discussion, but it closely follows the techniques document.
- 14:32:11 [ChrisR]
- testsuite for ALT: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0549.html
- 14:32:11 [wendy]
- cr review these 6 tests and determine if accessible?
- 14:33:03 [wendy]
- http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&lang=eng&wcag=true - no disagreement
- 14:33:15 [wendy]
- http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=3&lang=eng&wcag=true
- 14:33:22 [wendy]
- "should" thus it is an optional test
- 14:33:29 [wendy]
- idea is that alt-text is as short as possible
- 14:33:48 [wendy]
- bc it is not a must. as long as it is not required
- 14:33:58 [wendy]
- mc "must vs should" "short vs defining short"
- 14:34:35 [wendy]
- wac if alt-text gets too long, use a description
- 14:34:46 [wendy]
- cr if you have alt-text longer than 100 characters, then look at it.
- 14:35:30 [wendy]
- bc want authors to evaluate appropriateness of alt-text.
- 14:35:42 [wendy]
- mc general statement vs when using an automated tool
- 14:36:31 [wendy]
- cr if we tell them it has to be short, we need to give them a limit.
- 14:38:36 [wendy]
- http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=178&lang=eng&wcag=true - "meaningful" how do we define?
- 14:40:50 [wendy]
- mc can pass all the tests, but get to final one "meaningful" and could not pass
- 14:41:18 [wendy]
- cr think the meaningful test is most likely to get dumped because can't describe that well
- 14:41:22 [wendy]
- mc unless define a procedure
- 14:42:41 [wendy]
- Ask yourself, "Why is it there? What does it illustrate or add to the text?" from http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html
- 14:43:14 [wendy]
- bg "company logo" vs "ibm logo"
- 14:43:17 [wendy]
- mc vs "ibm"
- 14:45:58 [wendy]
- continued discussion about "meaningful"
- 14:46:19 [wendy]
- mc "right pointing arrow" vs "go to next page"
- 14:46:37 [wendy]
- bc that gets back to success criteria
- 14:48:25 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#text-equiv
- 14:48:28 [bcaldwell]
- 1. For all non-text content that is functional, such as graphical links or buttons, text-alternatives identify the purpose or function of the non-text content. [I]
- 14:48:28 [bcaldwell]
- 2. For all non-text content that is used to convey information, text-alternatives convey the same information. [I]
- 14:48:28 [bcaldwell]
- 3. For non-text content that is intended to create a specific sensory experience, such as music or visual art, text-alternatives identify and describe the non-text content. [I]
- 14:48:29 [bcaldwell]
- 4. For multimedia and time-dependent interactive content, text-alternatives identify the content and media alternatives are provided as described in guideline 1.2. [I]
- 14:48:32 [bcaldwell]
- 5. Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality, sensory experience and is neither multimedia nor time-dependent interactive content, is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology. [I]
- 14:48:35 [bcaldwell]
- 6. Any text-alternatives provided are explicitly associated with non-text content. [I]
- 14:48:45 [wendy]
- have a test for each one or are they within the "meaningful" test?
- 14:49:08 [wendy]
- cr 20 questions for each image, ignore them all?
- 14:49:30 [wendy]
- bc a process needed to identify the different types of images (when it conveys information vs when it provides function).
- 14:49:54 [wendy]
- mc split up techniques as well
- 14:50:00 [wendy]
- (since split SC)
- 14:50:09 [wendy]
- bc or an example for each
- 14:51:08 [wendy]
- cr #5 - that's covered by http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=16&lang=eng&wcag=true
- 14:51:42 [wendy]
- cr if using image as link, identify link target - could add a test (if don't already have one in anchors)
- 14:51:59 [wendy]
- bc perhaps just add a few more tests...replace "meaningful" with "functional images" or something
- 14:52:13 [wendy]
- cr have to make sure the tests cover the success criteria completely
- 14:52:21 [wendy]
- ja the end-to-ends can help with that
- 14:52:54 [Zakim]
- -Jenae_Andershonis
- 14:53:46 [wendy]
- action: chris review success criteria and map to tests
- 14:53:57 [wendy]
- mc what do about "alt-text should be short"?
- 14:54:18 [wendy]
- bc as long as have "should" it is not required. it's part of the toolbox. but it won't apply in every case.
- 14:54:38 [wendy]
- cr and we're responsible for identifying ambiguous terms.
- 14:54:46 [wendy]
- cr defining
- 14:55:33 [wendy]
- mc w/caveat that it is should not a must, more of a test of the guidelines
- 14:57:23 [wendy]
- wac get review
- 14:57:41 [wendy]
- wac need to link to test suite somehow. editorial note on this test.
- 14:59:04 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
- 15:01:02 [wendy]
- wac chunk techniques like did with general?
- 15:01:16 [wendy]
- wac resources section links to related tests?
- 15:01:35 [wendy]
- mc a view (TOC) all of the test files for given technique are collected together
- 15:01:50 [wendy]
- mc a given test file may apply to multiple techniques, the TOC could point to some test files more than once.
- 15:01:56 [ChrisR]
- Draft view of tests mapped to techniques: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-html-techs.xml&lang=eng
- 15:03:31 [wendy]
- cr note that this is from an older version of the techniques
- 15:04:16 [wendy]
- wac similar model to links from SC to general - single link for each technique that would link to TOC of tests for that technique
- 15:05:11 [wendy]
- wac publish as WG note or in WCAG WG space?
- 15:05:17 [wendy]
- mc have same status as techniques
- 15:05:21 [wendy]
- cr checklists should be the same too
- 15:08:14 [wendy]
- wac need to find a way to publish one piece at a time instead of everything at once, although b/c of the way we generate links between things can't update one chunk at a time.
- 15:08:46 [wendy]
- mc perhaps for november draft, live in WG space, but eventually should live at same level as other documents
- 15:11:25 [wendy]
- action: michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to 1st of the alt-text tests
- 15:13:02 [wendy]
- action 2 = michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to test suite (whehter it be 1st test or TOC of some sort - work with Chris)
- 15:18:06 [wendy]
- submitting techniques
- 15:18:38 [wendy]
- bg has 4 techniques for adding labels
- 15:21:12 [wendy]
- make bulleted list for user agent issues for 8 oct drafts but flesh out dtd for support for the 3 nov draft
- 15:22:33 [wendy]
- bg diff alternatives: use php to generate on the fly if don't have javascript
- 15:22:40 [wendy]
- (replaces heading w/images)
- 15:23:03 [wendy]
- bc breaks jaws ability to do header navigation
- 15:23:18 [wendy]
- bg put background image on the header?
- 15:23:53 [wendy]
- bc can get header in list, but as reading document it doesn't see them as headings (can't skip to using 'h')
- 15:24:27 [wendy]
- action: becky rework example (replace div with header)
- 15:25:06 [wendy]
- mc agreed to put thse techniques in
- 15:25:19 [wendy]
- wac with disclaimers
- 15:25:40 [wendy]
- bg check with very large fonts
- 15:27:23 [wendy]
- bg reference source
- 15:28:39 [wendy]
- bg send info back to developer, perhaps he can include additional info on his blog
- 15:29:02 [wendy]
- HTMl techniques proposals on the list
- 15:31:17 [wendy]
- mc if decide that script only used accessibly, drop that technique (for fallback). keep that technique (for fallback) until know decision about scripting.
- 15:31:47 [wendy]
- new drafts next friday
- 15:31:51 [wendy]
- including change logs
- 15:33:40 [wendy]
- next week: checklists, transferring test suites into w3c space, public drafts on friday, and then the dublin meetings
- 15:34:10 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:35:55 [wendy]
- action: wendy make visible (member-space?) summary of DIWG/WCAG WG and send to Becky
- 15:36:26 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 15:36:27 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 15:36:31 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 15:36:32 [Zakim]
- -Ken_Kipness
- 15:36:33 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 16:02:02 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 16:02:04 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has left #wai-wcag
- 16:02:10 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:02:10 [Zakim]
- leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ken_Kipness, Don_Evans, Ben, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson
- 16:02:10 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:02:15 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 16:02:22 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items:
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: chris review success criteria and map to tests [1]
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T14-53-46
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to test suite (whehter it be 1st test or TOC of some sort - work with Chris) [2]
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-11-25
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: becky rework example (replace div with header) [3]
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-24-27
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy make visible (member-space?) summary of DIWG/WCAG WG and send to Becky [4]
- 16:02:22 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-35-55
- 21:06:25 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:06:36 [wendy]
- programmatic object - sequence, selection, and iteration
- 21:06:41 [wendy]
- ncludes: scripting, java, flash w/action script
- 21:06:45 [wendy]
- "when we talk about scripts, are we talking about script web content or the result that is web content? you don't see script on the screen, you see an ojbect, or an image as a result. "
- 21:07:26 [wendy]
- mc programmatic object "action of doing something" issues of fallback are a technology-support issue
- 21:07:37 [wendy]
- bc basic requirement about labeling?
- 21:08:08 [wendy]
- bc distinction between what a prog. object/script does (so can choose to change UA or identify it before something happens) vs it having a text alternative
- 21:08:52 [wendy]
- mc dependson what the object does. applet: label it, like an image. however, are web sites that have html framework that loads flash.
- 21:09:32 [wendy]
- mc even need to label it (the flash site)? w/flash - if it *is* the site, what would be the label?
- 21:09:52 [wendy]
- bc current user agents don't say anything. needs a mechanisms that the site is encoded in flash.
- 21:10:23 [wendy]
- mc the fact that flash is programmatic is not why you have to do it, it's the lack of support
- 21:11:25 [wendy]
- mc require text for images in cases where text is not supported
- 21:11:55 [wendy]
- bc screen readers say "graphic or image" when encounter regardless of alt -text
- 21:12:05 [wendy]
- bc they don't say "here's an object" or identify other types of content.
- 21:13:30 [wendy]
- bc the user has to make a choice like disabling javascript or plug-ins in order to search for alternatives
- 21:13:40 [wendy]
- bc applies across all the types at one time
- 21:13:58 [wendy]
- mc images handled separately from javascript
- 21:14:12 [wendy]
- mc renders image also provide alternative. scripting is one or the other.
- 21:14:22 [wendy]
- bc alternatives often not options until disable something else
- 21:14:36 [wendy]
- mc no reason an asst tech couldn't grab info from dom
- 21:16:48 [wendy]
- mc write in terms of how things should be vs how things are
- 21:17:48 [wendy]
- mc more likely to be future-proof
- 21:17:54 [wendy]
- gz yes
- 21:18:04 [wendy]
- bc can live with it, but need to spend energy hammering on UAs
- 21:20:21 [wendy]
- mc in guideline level wouldn't have anything that speaksto programmatic objects (per se), unless if have guidelines abouthow to make them accessible (e.g., keyboard access), however wouldn't say "provide fallbacks" do that at technology-specific level depending on support
- 21:20:35 [wendy]
- mc determine if we should recommend fallbacks for given technology and how
- 21:22:48 [wendy]
- non-text content: 1.1 (generally), specific non-text content - multimedia (1.2) and programmatic objects (4.1/4.2) either collapse or be more specific.
- 21:22:52 [wendy]
- is 1.1 primarily about images?
- 21:24:07 [wendy]
- can we get rid of the term non-text content?
- 21:24:21 [wendy]
- instead use images, multimedia, and programmatic objects (or prog funcationality?)
- 21:24:34 [wendy]
- lump progr. objects into non-text content with function
- 21:24:45 [wendy]
- equivalent handled under 4.2
- 21:25:10 [wendy]
- is text as ultimate fallback always the right answer?
- 21:25:16 [wendy]
- view from a different perspective.
- 21:25:59 [wendy]
- there are different media types people encounter: structured text, static images, multimedia, audio-only, video-only, dynamic interactions (programmatic objects)
- 21:26:08 [wendy]
- need guidelines related to each one
- 21:26:33 [wendy]
- then we're not thinking text or non-text, thinking about media types
- 21:27:14 [wendy]
- what about text/xml that could end up either in structured text or an image (if converted to svg)
- 21:28:09 [wendy]
- dealing with text in raster image different from svg
- 21:28:58 [wendy]
- principle: make text scalable, for raster images do x, for svg do y
- 21:29:16 [wendy]
- just call it data? depends on the transformation process
- 21:29:56 [wendy]
- mathml explicitly provides a visual version and a logical version, supposedly interchangable
- 21:31:29 [wendy]
- at the moment, svg is not widely supported, and therefore needs text equivalent - not b/c the text is not there but b/c of lack of support
- 21:32:10 [wendy]
- assuming the author will have to interact w/supporting tech to figure out what it is
- 21:33:01 [wendy]
- still have to identify what it is (a chart, a decoration, etc.)
- 21:33:56 [wendy]
- similar argument to identifying contents of data table
- 21:35:35 [wendy]
- (and structured relationships within )
- 21:37:11 [wendy]
- question of baseline. if cna't define it, never know what tech someone will use.
- 21:37:24 [wendy]
- will always label images, why are other technologies treated differently?
- 21:37:47 [wendy]
- maybe someday... 20 years or so? :)
- 21:38:03 [Gez]
- Gez has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:39:34 [wendy]
- even for images, matter of technology support.
- 21:41:13 [wendy]
- mc no matter what unsupported technology, provide a label regardless of the media type. if is supported, don't need a label.
- 21:41:26 [wendy]
- currently, set is the same.
- 21:41:31 [wendy]
- however, how do you define supported?
- 21:57:25 [wendy]
- going through JIS to see how they work it out. General principles are good.
- 21:58:58 [wendy]
- can we throw baseline over the wall to policy?
- 21:59:46 [wendy]
- like to say "declare baseline" then give info about reasonable baseline given today's technology.
- 22:01:14 [wendy]
- is scripting its own thing? anything else like it
- 22:01:16 [wendy]
- ?
- 22:01:58 [wendy]
- current inaccessible uses of javascript: menus
- 22:03:06 [wendy]
- client-side validation
- 22:03:32 [wendy]
- security, time, cost - not accessibility issue.
- 22:03:57 [wendy]
- inserting content
- 22:04:07 [wendy]
- javascript calculators (price calculators)
- 22:04:15 [wendy]
- could change content at a rate someone can't keep up with
- 22:04:29 [wendy]
- accessibilit of the function not of javascript support for the function
- 22:04:40 [wendy]
- separate accessibility issues if sripting is not supported
- 22:04:50 [wendy]
- is tehre a work around?
- 22:04:59 [wendy]
- where does javascript create accessibility issue?
- 22:22:45 [Zakim]
- -Gez_Lemon
- 22:28:19 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 22:28:21 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 22:28:26 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 22:28:27 [Zakim]
- Team_(wai-wcag)21:00Z has ended
- 22:28:28 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Ben, Wendy, Gez_Lemon
- 22:50:09 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 22:50:09 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 22:50:12 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:50:12 [RRSAgent]
- I see no action items