IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-09-16
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 19:51:32 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 19:51:40 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log public
- 19:51:46 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log worold
- 19:51:48 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log world
- 19:51:55 [wendy]
- sheesh! i can't type today.
- 19:52:28 [wendy]
- Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0654.html
- 19:56:09 [wendy]
- agenda+ TTF summary - Naming of Gateway/General (update on TTF discussion)
- 19:56:32 [wendy]
- agenda+ Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion)
- 19:56:49 [wendy]
- agenda+ Guideline 4.2 and baseline technology
- 19:56:57 [wendy]
- agenda+ Check-in about future face-to-face meetings
- 19:57:01 [Gez]
- Gez has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:01:34 [Becky]
- Becky has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:02:01 [Michael]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 20:02:01 [Zakim]
- sorry, Michael, I do not see a party named 'Michael_Cooper'
- 20:02:20 [Michael]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:02:20 [Zakim]
- sorry, Michael, I don't know what conference this is
- 20:02:21 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see Becky, Gez, RRSAgent, Zakim, Michael, bengt, wendy, sh1mmer
- 20:02:27 [Michael]
- zakim, this is wai
- 20:02:27 [Zakim]
- ok, Michael; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
- 20:02:34 [Michael]
- zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
- 20:02:35 [Zakim]
- ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
- 20:02:38 [Zakim]
- +??P8
- 20:02:46 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P8 is Kerstin
- 20:02:46 [Zakim]
- +Kerstin; got it
- 20:02:50 [Michael]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:02:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P1, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin
- 20:02:57 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P1 is David
- 20:02:57 [Zakim]
- +David; got it
- 20:02:59 [Zakim]
- +Alex_Li
- 20:03:00 [Becky]
- zakim, Iam Becky_Gibson
- 20:03:00 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'Iam Becky_Gibson', Becky
- 20:03:05 [Becky]
- zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
- 20:03:05 [Zakim]
- ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
- 20:04:31 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 20:04:32 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:05:06 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 20:05:21 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P9 is Gregg_and_Ben
- 20:05:21 [Zakim]
- +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
- 20:05:41 [gregg]
- gregg has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:06:18 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:06:18 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see David, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben
- 20:06:49 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink
- 20:08:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:08:15 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:08:15 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see David, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Yvette_Hoitink
- 20:11:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:11:36 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 20:11:45 [wendy]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 20:11:45 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. "TTF summary - Naming of Gateway/General (update on TTF discussion)" taken up [from wendy]
- 20:13:35 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 20:13:45 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (18%), John_Slatin (19%), Michael_Cooper (39%), JasonWhite (9%)
- 20:14:25 [wendy]
- working on: test suites, rdf techniques, scripting techniques
- 20:15:05 [wendy]
- mc we need resolution on baseline/4.2 issues to continue our work.
- 20:15:12 [wendy]
- mc have proposal to rename gateway techniques
- 20:15:33 [wendy]
- js proposal is to rename "gateway to techniues" as "general techniques for wcag 2.0
- 20:15:49 [wendy]
- js there has been some discussion in the past.
- 20:16:08 [wendy]
- js came up in discussion of overview draft
- 20:16:20 [wendy]
- zakim, mute david
- 20:16:20 [Zakim]
- David should now be muted
- 20:17:25 [gregg]
- Bengt - what is the problem - what does problem look like
- 20:19:04 [wendy]
- ?no disagreement to rename it General Techniques for WCAG 2.0
- 20:19:07 [wendy]
- ack David
- 20:19:42 [wendy]
- dm is the proposal both renaming and purpose or just renaming?
- 20:19:50 [wendy]
- js linkages still need to be worked out.
- 20:21:52 [wendy]
- 9224
- 20:21:53 [wendy]
- ?
- 20:22:09 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 20:22:09 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see David (muted), Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite (muted), Gregg_and_Ben,
- 20:22:12 [Zakim]
- ... Yvette_Hoitink (muted)
- 20:23:06 [wendy]
- there is plenty o fspace on the bridge...
- 20:24:04 [wendy]
- zakim, close item 1
- 20:24:04 [Zakim]
- agendum 1 closed
- 20:24:05 [Zakim]
- I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
- 20:24:06 [Zakim]
- 2. Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion) [from wendy]
- 20:24:12 [wendy]
- zakim, take up next item
- 20:24:12 [Zakim]
- agendum 2. "Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion)" taken up [from wendy]
- 20:24:14 [bengt]
- yeah, but it say this passcode is not valid it is strange
- 20:24:46 [Zakim]
- +[Microsoft]
- 20:25:02 [wendy]
- zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
- 20:25:02 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Barta; got it
- 20:25:37 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "5 has OR instead of AND"
- 20:27:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute me
- 20:27:24 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 20:27:53 [wendy]
- proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0651.html
- 20:28:07 [wendy]
- can satisfy the "or" by not being multimedia
- 20:28:17 [wendy]
- yh the "or" should be an "and"
- 20:28:20 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 20:28:20 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "5 has OR instead of AND"
- 20:28:34 [wendy]
- gv "and is not either multimedia nor ..."
- 20:28:57 [wendy]
- q+ to say "editorial, but text-alternative?"
- 20:29:14 [wendy]
- ack gez
- 20:29:25 [wendy]
- gl "marked up such that it can be ignored..."
- 20:29:39 [wendy]
- gl better to say, "graceful degredation in AT" just in case there is something other than ignoring?
- 20:29:44 [wendy]
- yh we want them to ignore it
- 20:29:44 [Michael]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:29:44 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper should now be muted
- 20:30:41 [wendy]
- yh typical example is null alt-text?
- 20:31:01 [wendy]
- gv can be handled appropriately?
- 20:31:04 [wendy]
- js not testable
- 20:32:12 [wendy]
- gv should we change the wording?
- 20:32:17 [wendy]
- gv go with for now
- 20:32:22 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:32:22 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "editorial, but text-alternative?"
- 20:32:53 [bcaldwell]
- revised wording to #5: 5. Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality,
- 20:32:53 [bcaldwell]
- sensory experience and is neither multimedia nor time-dependent interactive content, is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology. [I]
- 20:33:19 [wendy]
- gv since they are not alternatives to text, do want hyphen.
- 20:33:57 [wendy]
- gv we want it to be an alternative that is text
- 20:35:38 [wendy]
- action: john investigate what is appropriate for "text alternative" hyphen or not
- 20:37:16 [wendy]
- wac raises flag that 1.1 and 1.2 might need to be combined.
- 20:38:16 [wendy]
- gv or explicitly exclude 1.2 issues from 1.1
- 20:38:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:38:49 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 20:40:28 [wendy]
- bg we've added #6?
- 20:41:17 [wendy]
- resolution to adopt proposal w/today's changes
- 20:42:39 [wendy]
- next issue: does 1.1 apply to scripts and/or interaction?
- 20:42:55 [Michael]
- q+ to say content vs. interaction
- 20:42:55 [bengt]
- bengt has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:43:35 [wendy]
- bg wasn't thinking in terms of 1.1, but issue came up with scripting techs
- 20:44:07 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "How is JS support for AT?"
- 20:44:11 [wendy]
- bg m3m believes for the most part can do everything w/script (except for a few exceptions)
- 20:44:16 [wendy]
- bg comes back to conformance issues
- 20:44:21 [wendy]
- bg can write javascript that is accessible
- 20:44:38 [wendy]
- gv related to baseline technology
- 20:45:02 [wendy]
- gv of a particular class or random?
- 20:45:23 [wendy]
- bg e.g., espn scoreboard as well as html-based wysiwyg editor
- 20:45:39 [wendy]
- bg also raises problem that those things that make it editable are not in any dtd.
- 20:45:50 [wendy]
- bg thus, related to using tech according to spec
- 20:46:01 [wendy]
- gv using according to spec diff than don't use anything not in a spec
- 20:46:10 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 20:46:50 [wendy]
- jw would like to scripts away from guideline 1.1 b/c the altenratives to scripts could be just as interactive, e.g., declarative markup (eg xforms)
- 20:47:37 [wendy]
- jw where content be made accessible, should be under guideline 4
- 20:47:40 [bcaldwell]
- q+
- 20:47:46 [wendy]
- s/be made/cannot be made
- 20:47:47 [Michael]
- ack Michael
- 20:47:48 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say content vs. interaction
- 20:47:49 [wendy]
- ack michael
- 20:48:07 [bengt_]
- bengt_ has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:48:09 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute me
- 20:48:09 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 20:48:30 [wendy]
- mc non-text content should be content that doesn't have a text representation (images, movies, etc.). the interactions created by scripts are not "content"
- 20:48:36 [wendy]
- q+ to say "DIWG POV"
- 20:48:59 [wendy]
- mc applets and flash both have interaction and have movies, images, etc.
- 20:49:15 [wendy]
- mc if providing interactive service, would not be part of 1.1
- 20:50:49 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 20:50:49 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "How is JS support for AT?"
- 20:51:02 [wendy]
- yh can do stuff w/script that don't require alternatives.
- 20:51:22 [wendy]
- yh if create real content, then different guidelines apply.
- 20:51:29 [wendy]
- yh it depends on the use which guidelines apply.
- 20:51:37 [wendy]
- ack bcal
- 20:51:54 [wendy]
- bc they all fall into both. don't think scripts/prog objects completely out of 1.1
- 20:52:08 [wendy]
- bc need to draw line between labeling/describing/identifying with
- 20:52:13 [wendy]
- bc interacting with
- 20:52:28 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, mute me
- 20:52:28 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 20:52:36 [wendy]
- bc 1.1 labels/etc 4.2 directly accessible or alternaitve for functionality
- 20:52:44 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:52:44 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "DIWG POV"
- 20:54:04 [Becky]
- q+
- 20:54:59 [wendy]
- wac http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-di-wg/2004Sep/0040.html
- 20:55:21 [wendy]
- wac more reason to combine 1.1/1.2 (label/desribing) and 4.2 (interaction)
- 20:55:24 [wendy]
- ack becky
- 20:55:37 [wendy]
- bg how do you label script?
- 20:56:06 [wendy]
- bc when you look at what the script is, depends on what it does.
- 20:56:13 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 20:57:10 [Michael]
- q+ to agree with Jason, but the act of creation isn't itself subject
- 20:57:54 [wendy]
- q+ to ask "prog object - scripts and plug-ins?"
- 20:58:06 [wendy]
- mc if prog ob generates image, then needs text alternative
- 20:58:32 [wendy]
- mc act of creation is not subject to 1.1
- 20:58:41 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 20:58:41 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask "prog object - scripts and plug-ins?"
- 20:58:46 [wendy]
- ack michael
- 20:58:46 [Zakim]
- Michael_Cooper, you wanted to agree with Jason, but the act of creation isn't itself subject
- 20:59:31 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "technology independent"
- 20:59:51 [wendy]
- wac clarification of programmatic object - mean scripts and plug-ins?
- 20:59:54 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:00:14 [wendy]
- js when we talk about scripts, are we talking about script web content or the result that is web cvontent?
- 21:00:31 [wendy]
- js you don't see script on the screen, you see an ojbect, or an image as a result.
- 21:00:47 [wendy]
- q+ to say "content - depends on defn. if it is what is shipped or what you perceive"
- 21:02:15 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:02:15 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:02:23 [wendy]
- wac delivery unit, authored unit
- 21:02:25 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:02:25 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "content - depends on defn. if it is what is shipped or what you perceive"
- 21:02:30 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:02:30 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "technology independent"
- 21:02:39 [wendy]
- yh trying to make tech indie guidelines.
- 21:02:50 [wendy]
- yh "plug-ins" is html-specific
- 21:04:11 [wendy]
- q+ to ask "how much of this is an html-specific issue? e.g., sccripting and svg?"
- 21:04:14 [wendy]
- ack jason
- 21:04:23 [wendy]
- jw anything written in a programming language.
- 21:04:48 [wendy]
- jw can all of the recursive functions and operations of turing machine be implemented
- 21:05:12 [wendy]
- jw what is content? the problem is that if interaction and related matters are not part of content.
- 21:05:28 [wendy]
- jw then our guidelines don't apply, since they are "web content accessibility guidelines"
- 21:05:55 [wendy]
- jw everything written by author for delivery which may or many not get delivered is part of the content.
- 21:06:24 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:06:24 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask "how much of this is an html-specific issue? e.g., sccripting and svg?"
- 21:10:03 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:10:03 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:12:37 [wendy]
- wac seems that we need some definitions (programmatic objects, content, etc.) and a dvision between non-text content that needs a label vs interaction that needs to be functional
- 21:13:31 [wendy]
- this is still an open issue. put on agenda for f2f. discussion about defns
- 21:14:40 [wendy]
- action: wac, ben, gez, michael, jason brainstorm about defns
- 21:15:26 [wendy]
- ack gez
- 21:17:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- q+ to say "<img src="
- 21:17:56 [wendy]
- gv trying to get ascii art out of non-text content
- 21:18:10 [wendy]
- gv "a non-linear string of characters"
- 21:18:14 [wendy]
- gv mathematics?
- 21:18:32 [wendy]
- wac all of the chars are unicode charaacters, the markup specifies the semantics/relationships between them to make equations
- 21:18:37 [wendy]
- jw agrees w/wendy
- 21:19:13 [wendy]
- gv scripts can be done in markup
- 21:19:55 [wendy]
- gv are equations text or non-text?
- 21:19:58 [wendy]
- gv where you have to use markup
- 21:20:46 [wendy]
- lg if an equation is in unicode characters and need structure to comprehend
- 21:21:12 [wendy]
- wac similar to 1.3 where need to provide structure for a document?
- 21:21:21 [wendy]
- jw then every table would become non-text
- 21:21:54 [wendy]
- jw the structures are different. if had to represented as linear sequence, then every table which is 2 dimensional, would become non-text
- 21:22:21 [wendy]
- jw instead, "if representable linearly then it is non-text" then equations can be include
- 21:22:45 [wendy]
- q+ to ask, "are we making this too difficult only to exclude ascii art?"
- 21:23:35 [wendy]
- ack loretta
- 21:23:47 [wendy]
- lg not so much if "can be represented" but "if it is represented"
- 21:23:59 [wendy]
- ls if have an image of text, it could be represented by unocide, however it is not.
- 21:24:03 [wendy]
- s/ls/lg
- 21:24:19 [wendy]
- lg content that is not being represented by unicode characters
- 21:24:34 [wendy]
- gv ascii art is represented by unicode characters
- 21:25:26 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:25:26 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "<img src="
- 21:26:06 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:26:06 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to ask, "are we making this too difficult only to exclude ascii art?"
- 21:28:26 [bcaldwell]
- ack Jason
- 21:28:35 [wendy]
- wac goes back to earlier issue of rendered content vs what is provided that causese that rendering
- 21:28:47 [wendy]
- jw agree that ascii art is marginal exception. just needs to be mentioned somewhere
- 21:30:10 [wendy]
- gv "as it is presented to the user is in unicode..."
- 21:30:49 [wendy]
- text than when rendered for the user is a sequence of characters. Characters are defined by unicode.
- 21:31:41 [wendy]
- explicitly exclude ascii art
- 21:32:24 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Barta
- 21:38:15 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:38:15 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:40:20 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 21:40:34 [Zakim]
- -Matt
- 21:40:43 [Zakim]
- -Becky_Gibson
- 21:41:24 [Yvette_Hoitink]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:41:24 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:42:01 [wendy]
- group agrees that meeting m/t and t/f at the t.p. instead of csun seems a good idea. t.p.. is in boston 28 february - 4 march
- 21:42:05 [wendy]
- ack kerstin
- 21:42:12 [Zakim]
- -Alex_Li
- 21:42:13 [Zakim]
- -Gez
- 21:42:14 [Zakim]
- -Kerstin
- 21:42:14 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 21:42:15 [Zakim]
- -Gregg_and_Ben
- 21:42:15 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 21:42:16 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:42:17 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 21:42:19 [Zakim]
- -David
- 21:42:19 [Gez]
- Gez has left #wai-wcag
- 21:42:21 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 21:42:23 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, David, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Yvette_Hoitink, Mike_Barta
- 21:42:26 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 21:42:26 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 21:42:31 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 21:42:31 [RRSAgent]
- I see 2 open action items:
- 21:42:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john investigate what is appropriate for "text alternative" hyphen or not [1]
- 21:42:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-38
- 21:42:31 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac, ben, gez, michael, jason brainstorm about defns [2]
- 21:42:31 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-wai-wcag-irc#T21-14-40