15:34:01 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pf
15:34:10 <Al> Zakim, make log public
15:34:18 <Al> RRSAgent, make log public
15:34:29 <Al> RRSAgent, make log world-access
15:34:48 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #pf
15:34:56 <Al> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
15:34:57 <Zakim> ok, Al; I see WAI_PF()12:00PM scheduled to start in 26 minutes
15:35:34 <Al> Wendy, will you take the lead in getting WCAG people identified with their Zakim ports (in the "on the phone" list) as they arrive?
15:37:09 <wendy> al, yes
15:38:45 <wendy> al, do we only have 16 ports for today?
15:41:40 <Lisa> Lisa has joined #pf
15:45:16 <Al> We have 16  ports reserved.  My understanding is that Zakim does not enforce this if there are ports available.
15:47:16 <Al> The union of people who RSVPed or who posted material on topic on XTECH  does not exceed about 12.  If we find we have actual capacity problems we can throw people off onto IRC but I don't expect to have to go there either on the basis of the numbers or what I understand to be the Zakim actual behavior.
15:50:30 <Al> agenda+ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2004Aug/0008.html
15:51:17 <Al> agenda+  greeting, getting Zakim names
15:51:29 <Al> agenda+ identify scribe(s)
15:53:14 <Al> agenda+ preview of agenda [Al]
15:53:39 <Al> agenda+ connecting with help for natural language terms
15:54:24 <Al> agenda+ connecting with definitions for 'role' etc. values.
15:54:31 <Zakim> WAI_PF()12:00PM has now started
15:54:38 <Zakim> + +1.202.785.aaaa
15:54:58 <Al> agenda+ next steps
15:55:34 <Al> agenda+ review actions with attention to where responses go
15:55:39 <Al> agenda?
15:56:29 <MattSEA> MattSEA has joined #pf
15:58:43 <Zakim> +??P10
15:58:43 <dpoehlman> dpoehlman has joined #pf
15:59:26 <Zakim> +Matt
15:59:44 <Zakim> +??P14
16:00:07 <Zakim> +??P15
16:00:10 <Zakim> +Wendy
16:00:20 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:00:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.202.785.aaaa, ??P10, Matt, ??P14, ??P15, Wendy
16:00:25 <Zakim> +[IBM]
16:00:26 <Lisa> lisa
16:00:36 <Al> Zakim, call AlGilman-home, please
16:00:36 <Zakim> ok, Al; the call is being made
16:00:38 <wendy> zakim, +1.202.785.aaaa is Katie
16:00:38 <Zakim> +Katie; got it
16:00:39 <Zakim> +AlGilman
16:00:52 <RichS> RichS has joined #pf
16:00:53 <Zakim> +DPoehlman
16:01:00 <dpoehlman> zakim, mute me
16:01:00 <Zakim> DPoehlman should now be muted
16:01:08 <wendy> zakim, ??P10 may be Lisa
16:01:08 <Zakim> +Lisa?; got it
16:01:12 <Gottfried> Gottfried has joined #pf
16:01:13 <wendy> zakim, ??P14 may be David
16:01:13 <Zakim> +David?; got it
16:01:14 <Zakim> +Gottfried
16:01:22 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:01:22 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, Lisa?, Matt, David?, ??P15, Wendy, [IBM], AlGilman, DPoehlman (muted), Gottfried
16:01:27 <wendy> zakim, [IBM] is Rich
16:01:27 <Zakim> +Rich; got it
16:01:30 <Zakim> +Janina
16:01:46 <wendy> zakim, who's making noise?
16:02:00 <Zakim> wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: 11 (9%), Katie (38%), Lisa? (30%), Gottfried (54%), Janina (13%)
16:02:04 <dpoehlman> david please correct zakim for me.  I'm dpoehlman and need to be dpoehlman
16:02:35 <Zakim> +John_Slatin
16:02:36 <wendy> zakim, mute Gottfried
16:02:36 <Zakim> Gottfried should now be muted
16:02:45 <dpoehlman> zakim, unmute me
16:02:45 <Zakim> DPoehlman should no longer be muted
16:02:57 <dpoehlman> zakim, mute me
16:02:57 <Zakim> DPoehlman should now be muted
16:02:58 <Zakim> +Mark
16:03:02 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:03:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, Lisa?, Matt, David?, ??P15, Wendy, Rich, AlGilman, DPoehlman (muted), Gottfried (muted), Janina, John_Slatin, Mark
16:03:41 <wendy> bengt, did you just call?
16:03:46 <wendy> if so, you are cutting out
16:04:12 <bengt> its me
16:04:28 <wendy> zakim, mute bengt
16:04:28 <Zakim> sorry, wendy, I do not see a party named 'bengt'
16:04:35 <wendy> zakim, Mark is Bengt
16:04:35 <Zakim> +Bengt; got it
16:04:37 <wendy> zakim, mute bengt
16:04:37 <Zakim> Bengt should now be muted
16:04:59 <bengt> zakim, who is making noise ?
16:05:04 <wendy> zakim, who's muted?
16:05:04 <Zakim> I see DPoehlman, Gottfried, Janina, Bengt muted
16:05:12 <Zakim> bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Katie (16%), Lisa? (10%), David? (26%), ??P15 (1%)
16:05:23 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
16:05:41 <Becky> Becky has joined #pf
16:05:46 <gregg> gregg has joined #pf
16:05:48 <janina> janina has joined #pf
16:05:51 <dpoehlman> wh is p15?
16:05:57 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #pf
16:06:00 <wendy> don't know who p15 is
16:06:06 <Zakim> +??P45
16:06:07 <dpoehlman> hi greg!
16:06:16 <wendy> zakim, ??P45 is Charles
16:06:16 <Zakim> +Charles; got it
16:06:21 <David_MacDonald> David_MacDonald has joined #pf
16:07:08 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:07:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, Lisa?, Matt, David?, ??P15, Wendy, Rich, AlGilman, DPoehlman (muted), Gottfried (muted), Janina (muted), John_Slatin (muted), Bengt (muted), Becky_Gibson,
16:07:11 <Zakim> ... Charles
16:07:44 <wendy> zakim, ??P15 is Gregg_and_Ben
16:07:44 <Zakim> +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
16:08:48 <wendy> zakim, can we have more ports?
16:08:48 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, wendy.
16:10:50 <Zakim> -Matt
16:11:38 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
16:11:50 <Michael> Michael has joined #pf
16:12:14 <dpoehlman> oh, please don't go.
16:12:20 <Zakim> +??P7
16:12:56 <Al> Zakim, who is on the call?
16:12:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, Lisa?, David?, Gregg_and_Ben, Wendy, Rich, AlGilman, DPoehlman (muted), Gottfried (muted), Janina (muted), John_Slatin, Bengt (muted), Becky_Gibson,
16:12:59 <Zakim> ... Charles, Michael_Cooper, ??P7
16:13:16 <Zakim> -??P7
16:13:55 <bengt> count was 16 ?
16:14:02 <Zakim> +EricM
16:14:13 <dpoehlman> echo?
16:14:15 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
16:14:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, Lisa?, David?, Gregg_and_Ben, Wendy, Rich, AlGilman, DPoehlman (muted), Gottfried (muted), Janina (muted), John_Slatin, Bengt (muted), Becky_Gibson,
16:14:18 <Zakim> ... Charles, Michael_Cooper, EricM
16:15:23 <em> em has joined #pf
16:16:31 <Michael> scribe: Michael
16:16:31 <em> rrsagent, pointer?
16:16:31 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-pf-irc#T16-16-31-1
16:16:38 <Al> Michael will scribe for a while
16:19:29 <dpoehlman> I'll go.
16:19:48 <Zakim> -DPoehlman
16:20:06 <MattSEA> thanks, dpoehlman 
16:20:15 <Zakim> +Matt
16:20:21 <dpoehlman> I'm now only on irc so no presure, bu I hope someone takes good notes.
16:21:16 <Michael> Topic: Agenda overview
16:21:24 <Michael> Agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2004Aug/0008.html
16:22:14 <Michael> ag: Need to get all the stuff we're working on to converge
16:22:17 <wendy> zakim, how many ports are reserved at 12:45?
16:22:17 <Zakim> on Wed Aug 11 12:45:00 2004 I see 92 reserved, 144 ports 30 minutes later, and 110 ports 60 minutes later
16:22:28 <Michael> gv: also need solutions for the next 12 months
16:24:01 <Michael> gv: in long run we have AT for people with sensory/physical disabilities
16:24:15 <Michael> for cognitive disabilities ability to reshape page to be more usable
16:24:44 <Michael> programatically determined: appears to require markup at a minute level, couldn't generally require
16:24:50 <Michael> programmatically located: easier to require
16:24:59 <Zakim> -Bengt
16:25:18 <Michael> WCAG looking at various levels of things that can be done for people with various levels of disability and various levels of effort
16:26:25 <Michael> Eric: Semantic Web sees lots of overlap
16:26:56 <Michael> this meeting a first step to bring that about
16:27:15 <Michael> zakim, mute Michael_Cooper
16:27:15 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
16:27:54 <Michael> ability to identify extended information from trusted third parties....
16:28:15 <Michael> consider overlapping metadata requirements, architecture, use cases
16:29:03 <Lisa> q+
16:29:06 <RichS> q+
16:29:50 <Michael> ag: pf group working on dynamic content
16:30:41 <Michael> UA using accessibility API may not know important facts about the content e.g., it's focusable, link-like in behaviour
16:30:49 <David_MacDonald> David_MacDonald has joined #pf
16:31:13 <Michael> XAG says you should make semantically rich formats and export the ideas in a notation that other processors can understand
16:31:41 <Michael> e..g., annotation space in XSD can have link to metadata
16:31:45 <gregg> q+
16:32:14 <Michael> haven't really worked this through yet though
16:32:32 <em> .me notes the xsd:annotation space is human readable, but not machine processible... wonders if RDF-general, SKOS-like-specific approach in xsd:annotation may be a point to make as another possible connection 
16:32:52 <Michael> Looking at XHTML 2 hoping to make sure it handles all this
16:33:12 <Michael> Need to make sure Device Independence and Accessibility agendae synched
16:33:21 <Michael> DI about to have a workshop
16:34:03 <Michael> q?
16:34:05 <Al> q?
16:34:11 <Michael> ack Lisa
16:34:26 <em> .me wonders if someone can provide a pointer to the current WAI dictionary discussion, proposal?
16:34:31 <Michael> ls: on WCAG and PF
16:34:39 <Michael> bring semantic web for accessibility
16:35:04 <Michael> Web accessibility wasn't helping as much for LD as hoped
16:35:13 <bengt> bengt has joined #pf
16:35:49 <Al> eric, it's in the RSVP message you received, I'll try to recover it here.
16:35:54 <Michael> develop tools to build annotations in RDF
16:36:03 <em> .me wonders if someone can provide pointers to lisa's example while she's talking?
16:36:27 <Al> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#understandable
16:36:29 <Zakim> +Bengt
16:36:55 <wendy> http://ubaccess.com/swap.html
16:37:42 <Michael> ontology (private to UBAccess) mapped to XAG
16:38:29 <Michael> this is useful to device independence, accessibility, semantic, etc.
16:38:58 <Michael> can take accessibility further than by changing HTML code because you're outside the interface
16:39:42 <Michael> cascading lexicon needs to be part of a full paradigm for marking up what statements are important
16:39:49 <Michael> want to strip out the rubbish that may exist
16:40:29 <Michael> so this is just a first step, need to roadmap the rest
16:40:38 <Michael> ack RichS
16:40:43 <wendy> q+ to ask, "(re: lisa's point about making content accessible from outside the html) if not in html, what is the author's responsibility?"
16:41:23 <Michael> rs: question re content management systems
16:41:40 <Michael> and metadata about documents
16:42:09 <Michael> looked at semantic metadata about the object tree in a site?
16:42:35 <Michael> ??: yes, have handlers for particular rendering situations
16:42:43 <Michael> could add other handlers for other needs
16:43:45 <wendy> q-
16:44:10 <Al> during next steps - Eric, can we play with these examples?
16:44:14 <Al> q?
16:44:16 <Michael> ack gregg
16:44:47 <Michael> gv: as we talk about technologies do they work at the word/phrase level?
16:45:02 <Michael> as we talk about technologies do they work across the variety of technologies used on the Web?
16:45:16 <em> .me thinks gregg is asking an important and hard question
16:45:18 <Michael> ack Charles
16:46:07 <Michael> cmn: re stuff in 12 months, what exactly does that mean?
16:46:15 <Michael> what technology is WCAG prepared to use?
16:46:49 <Michael> e.g., only stuff that works in NS 4, or do we accept a modern browser requirement (and which modern browser?)
16:47:13 <Michael> gv: WCAG WG interested in things that affect design of WCAG 2.0
16:47:17 <dpoehlman> q+
16:47:59 <Michael> need something that is reasonable, general public can use at time WCAG 2.0 comes out
16:48:08 <em> q?
16:48:17 <Michael> ag: PF sees different profiles of processing w/ different timelines
16:48:28 <Michael> different maturity thresholds, appropriate to pursue in different processing chains
16:48:32 <Lisa> q+
16:48:33 <dpoehlman> q-
16:48:49 <Michael> cmn: hard to answer specific questions w/o having a specific application
16:49:16 <dpoehlman> q+
16:49:46 <dpoehlman> q-
16:50:21 <Michael> ~we're arguing about if we have enough zakim ports so DP can participate~
16:50:31 <wendy> david poehlman - we are freeing up a port on the call so you may call in
16:50:35 <Michael> ~gv will patch in DM so DP can dial in~
16:50:37 <Zakim> -Lisa?
16:50:52 <wendy> zakim, who's on the call?
16:50:52 <Zakim> On the phone I see Katie, David?, Gregg_and_Ben, Wendy, Rich, AlGilman, Gottfried (muted), Janina (muted), John_Slatin, Becky_Gibson, Charles, Michael_Cooper (muted), EricM, Matt,
16:50:55 <Zakim> ... Bengt
16:50:55 <Al> q?
16:50:57 <wendy> zakim, David? is Lisa
16:50:57 <Zakim> +Lisa; got it
16:51:16 <wendy> david - please try calling in
16:51:18 <em> q?
16:51:19 <Al> ack lisa
16:51:52 <em> ah
16:52:00 <Michael> ls: middleware/transcoding is part of answer to Charles' question
16:52:30 <em> bingo
16:52:35 <MattSEA> dpoehlman: care to join in?
16:52:52 <em> q?
16:52:58 <Michael> ack Charles
16:53:38 <Zakim> +DPoehlman
16:53:43 <dpoehlman> zakim, mute me
16:53:43 <Zakim> DPoehlman should now be muted
16:53:56 <Michael> to extent we can standardize what we want to do, agree on ontology for describing roles, we can move forward faster
16:54:04 <Al> dpoehlman, would you like to speak?
16:54:47 <Michael> benifit of semantic web technology is that for two things that do the same stuff, it's relatively easy to describe them as a single kind of thing
16:55:05 <Lisa> q+
16:55:12 <dpoehlman> it's been covered for me so far.
16:55:21 <Michael> ack lisa
16:56:08 <dpoehlman> yes!
16:56:15 <Michael> ls: if we decide on a standard lexicon, and somebody else creates one, all we have to do is map them with RDF and the system should work
16:56:22 <Michael> relates to backward compatibility
16:56:27 <em> the answer is 
16:56:28 <em> no
16:56:30 <Michael> fear is "are we going to get it right first time"
16:56:35 <em> bingo
16:56:42 <Michael> doesn't matter because of mapping ability
16:58:12 <Michael> Topic: Programatically Determined and Programatically Located
16:58:47 <Michael> gv: pd is uniquely identified, pl is findable
16:58:59 <em> q+ to ask if 3rd party services are considered acceptable in this context?
16:59:10 <dpoehlman> strings of gibberish?
16:59:23 <Michael> relates to abbreviations, acronyms, foreign phrases, etc.
16:59:35 <Michael> anything where user is confused on encountering a word
17:00:06 <Michael> for some terms you could search forever if it's not common
17:00:27 <Michael> so a way of referencing where a person would look important
17:00:33 <dpoehlman> depends on how often you like hearing the words 
17:00:39 <dpoehlman> "not found"
17:01:07 <Michael> ack em
17:01:07 <Zakim> em, you wanted to ask if 3rd party services are considered acceptable in this context?
17:01:32 <Michael> em: re pd, how are third party services viewed?
17:01:43 <Michael> e.g., IBM sem-tagger (sp?)
17:02:20 <Lisa> q+
17:02:25 <Michael> pd is user classifications, programmatic classifications?
17:03:00 <Michael> gv: tool can be used by author or at run time
17:03:07 <Michael> free/cheap tool ok
17:03:14 <Michael> but if tool expensive, doesn't help
17:03:51 <Michael> em: semantic web trying to encourage architecture in which you can go to a page and ask for information about it
17:04:12 <Michael> there are high-end and low-end tools, but all working within same architecture
17:04:53 <Michael> ag: there are different symbol/sense pairings with different policy implications
17:05:28 <gregg> q+
17:05:38 <Michael> there may be users who don't want to assume something is definitive unless it comes from an authority chain
17:05:53 <Michael> this data mining would support author
17:06:10 <Michael> to understand what things are likely to be misunderstood
17:06:43 <RichS> q+
17:06:56 <Michael> WCAG only has authoring requirements
17:07:12 <Michael> gv: but we look at what UA do and not require author to do what UA already does
17:07:27 <Al> q?
17:07:34 <Michael> also lean on UA to do things they "should" do
17:07:50 <dpoehlman> wonders if wcag will also not require things that are in uaag that user agents don't but need to do?
17:08:23 <em> q+
17:08:24 <gregg> q-
17:08:32 <Michael> running through a third party service would require author to deal with things the generic service can't handle
17:08:43 <Michael> ack charles
17:09:54 <Michael> cmn: system where user can click on a word and ask for a definition (e.g., babylon which uses user-defined dictionaries)
17:10:17 <bcaldwell> http://babylon.com/
17:10:25 <Michael> also european project to develop thesaurus
17:10:45 <Al> q?
17:10:48 <Michael> these are example implementations of what we're looking for
17:11:20 <Michael> right now we're missing ability for page to state to tool which vocabulary it's using
17:11:45 <em> q+ to talk about community examples and trust wrt cooperative cataloging - mindful of the time
17:12:04 <Michael> CMS developers are building ability to build/reference special dictionaries as needed
17:12:52 <Michael> Concept coding framework: symbol-based communication systems to map between symbolic representations
17:13:44 <Michael> should have way to say "these are the kinds of requirements I have"
17:13:50 <Al> em, we do need to hear from you.  My model is mike time shares per group.
17:15:11 <em> q+ to make the point, if this group is thinking abuot dictionary and glossary, then RDF general, SKOS specific is something that can be done now
17:15:32 <em> charles, please wrap up
17:15:36 <Michael> these are worth looking at
17:15:41 <Michael> question is how standardized they are
17:16:09 <em> q+ to make the point the problem is not technical, but social and organizational at this point
17:16:45 <em> SKOS reference - http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/1.0/guide/
17:17:06 <em> do people know about the W3C glossary project? and how it is using SKOS?
17:17:11 <Al> david will scribe now.
17:17:14 <bcaldwell> q?
17:17:16 <bcaldwell> ack Lisa
17:17:28 <Zakim> -Janina
17:18:22 <David_MacDonald> LS laguages with direction ambiguities pose problems. ambiguity not resolved using context
17:18:30 <Zakim> +Janina
17:18:39 <David_MacDonald> Gregg can you turn my phone up?
17:19:57 <David_MacDonald> LS people who don't want accessibility reliant on pripriatory is not realistic
17:21:06 <em> .me not sure if 'alt' tag is enough -  perhaps i might not have a full understanding of the problem
17:21:10 <David_MacDonald> LS what is needed is a simple authoring tool that isa simple as adding an ALT tag etc. she thinks it will be available in 12 months . She says the Ontology peices arenot too difficult
17:21:33 <Lisa> nothing to do with alt tag
17:21:50 <Zakim> -Katie
17:21:53 <Lisa> meant it as a metaphor
17:21:57 <em> ah
17:21:58 <David_MacDonald> I will call in
17:22:08 <Lisa> (not a very good one )
17:22:09 <David_MacDonald> I got the adjustment Lisa
17:23:00 <Zakim> +??P2
17:23:09 <em> zakim, ??P2 is David
17:23:09 <Zakim> +David; got it
17:23:15 <Al> Zq?
17:23:17 <bcaldwell> q?
17:23:18 <Al> q?
17:23:23 <bcaldwell> ack RichS
17:23:27 <David_MacDonald> Rich S
17:24:21 <Lisa> I also said
17:24:22 <Lisa> added what we thought might be needed hear
17:24:22 <Lisa> predicate for pointing mechanism
17:24:22 <Lisa>  class for lexical info
17:24:37 <Lisa> what else do we need?
17:24:37 <Lisa> maybe ontology for mapping from one lexicon to another
17:25:14 <David_MacDonald> address Greggs comments c..can't expect people to buy $$$ systems. But large companies can adapt middleware. Tell user agent how to adapt... ie widgets on a page ..what object it is the state it is in and how to map with it. ifthe AT wants to access it i can query the UA
17:25:24 <em> .me notes this is exactly how Haystack renders content - http://haystack.lcs.mit.edu/ 
17:26:28 <Al> q?
17:26:30 <David_MacDonald> Eric- part of question is where to focus on standardization and where to lethealthy competition to take place. eg. (one on the server level and one on client both use RDF identical architechtures
17:26:51 <David_MacDonald> Eric RDF Lib? and redfoot
17:26:53 <em> redfoot.net, rdflib.net
17:27:35 <David_MacDonald> Haystack on client side universal data viewer, an experiment that associates different handlers with different classes of objects
17:28:25 <David_MacDonald> open EM source David Carter? heads up project
17:28:50 <David_MacDonald> GUidelines do a good job but the next step is to implement them in the handles and doing a demo to prove a concept
17:28:53 <Lisa> q+
17:28:58 <em> ack em
17:28:58 <Zakim> em, you wanted to talk about community examples and trust wrt cooperative cataloging - mindful of the time and to make the point, if this group is thinking abuot dictionary and
17:29:01 <Zakim> ... glossary, then RDF general, SKOS specific is something that can be done now and to make the point the problem is not technical, but social and organizational at this point
17:29:40 <RichS> for the minutes: eric mentioned Redfoot
17:30:08 <wendy> [13:26] <em> redfoot.net, rdflib.net
17:30:36 <David_MacDonald> EM continues summarizes Charles. Dics and Glossaries, offers adtional context..library navigation management of data etc. data integration stitching together navigation of thesaurus dics etc. Skos
17:30:39 <em> -> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/thes/1.0/guide/ SKOS
17:30:56 <em> http://simile.mit.edu/longwell/demo/tr/longwell?http%3A%2F%2Fsimile.mit.edu%2F2004%2F04%2Fontologies%2Fglossary%23defines=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2003%2F03%2Fglossary-project%2Fdata%2Fglossaries%2Frfc2616%23resource
17:31:00 <em> SKOS in action
17:31:33 <David_MacDonald> EM good  Skos... lots of open sourse browsers know what to do with SKOS EM recommends tapping into this work
17:31:54 <David_MacDonald> EM this could be benefit for Accessible community
17:32:03 <Al> em: SKOS is a likely focus of next steps
17:32:36 <David_MacDonald> EM recording terms in a way that they could e stitched up later
17:32:52 <wendy> also: SKOS core RDF vocabulary: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core/
17:33:19 <David_MacDonald> EM Longwell browsers work with SKOS...
17:33:22 <em> longwell - http://simile.mit.edu/longwell/index.html
17:34:48 <David_MacDonald> EM lot to cover but this would be helpful. Agrees with Lisa need to build  front ends to the SKOS related glossaries, User interface could be made in a day among symantic web user groups
17:35:28 <David_MacDonald> Chair how can we annotate HTML, Notation 
17:35:38 <dpoehlman> must leave the meeting.  Thanks.
17:35:41 <David_MacDonald> Sorry what is our chair's name?
17:35:42 <dpoehlman> dpoehlman has left #pf
17:35:50 <wendy> david, our chair is Al Gilman
17:35:51 <Zakim> -DPoehlman
17:36:18 <David_MacDonald> AL - asks gregg suggestion
17:37:42 <wendy> w?
17:37:45 <wendy> q?
17:38:26 <David_MacDonald> GV not restrict to any technology, but something that is a general strategy with web resourses in general. Character string (word, Acronym, phrase, etc), identify techniques that would adress the issue well enough that we could put it in the Guidleines. Should work with strings
17:38:34 <wendy> ack charles
17:38:55 <em>     <skos:Concept rdf:about="http:/example.com/Concept/0002">
17:38:55 <em>                 <skos:prefLabel>English cuisine</skos:prefLabel>
17:38:55 <em>                 <skos:altLabel>English dishes</skos:altLabel>
17:38:55 <em>                 <skos:altLabel>English food</skos:altLabel>
17:38:56 <em>                 <skos:inScheme rdf:resource="http:/example.com/thesaurus"/>
17:38:58 <em>                 <skos:narrower rdf:resource="http:/example.com/Concept/0001"/>
17:39:00 <em>         </skos:Concept>
17:39:31 <em>         <skos:Concept rdf:about="http:/example.com/Concept/0001">
17:39:31 <em>                 <skos:prefLabel>Bangers and mash</skos:prefLabel>
17:39:32 <em>                 <skos:altLabel>Sausage and mash</skos:altLabel>
17:39:32 <em>                 <skos:altLabel>Sausage and mashed potato</skos:altLabel>
17:39:32 <em>                 <skos:inScheme rdf:resource="http:/example.com/thesaurus"/>
17:39:34 <em>                 <skos:broader rdf:resource="http:/example.com/Concept/0002"/>
17:39:37 <em>         </skos:Concept>
17:39:55 <David_MacDonald> Charles - link between any type of information such as pitures and text. in XML nice way to address any run of characters. in modern tag pdf there is a way to do it but there are formats of not addressing a particular word
17:40:02 <wendy> ack lisa
17:40:07 <David_MacDonald> some formats easy some not
17:41:39 <David_MacDonald> LS a bad HTML is bad...Flash and Adobe are looking at RDF as a way to address accessibility
17:42:56 <David_MacDonald> LS when defining a role, RDF is a good thing. RDF instances are useful
17:43:10 <bcaldwell> q?
17:44:03 <MattSEA> MattSEA has joined #pf
17:44:36 <David_MacDonald> AG if we are not dealing in middleware how is this available to AT. 
17:44:58 <Lisa> q!
17:45:04 <Lisa> q+
17:45:46 <David_MacDonald> AG we need to get into the DOM... slow replacement of HTML in the Authoring community. A significant portion of authors still in old HTML. 
17:47:32 <David_MacDonald> AG relative to HTML 4 if you want to talk a bout a specific element make sure it has an ID, ie. this is a SPAN that is functioning as a hyperlink. give it a class mark. place a tlken on it and with the right dictionalry it will tell youwhat to do with it. Use Dublin core
17:48:33 <David_MacDonald> Strings that are marking what kind of an element it is that is presently undefined but connected to the cheap sheet that tells you what it is
17:49:41 <David_MacDonald> AG we can create a concept node sometimes represent by this or that string. .. sit down at the table and announce convention.  
17:50:15 <David_MacDonald> Eric , how would I do that in an HTML doc. A one liner in HTML 
17:51:13 <David_MacDonald> ERICthis is an important question but hard to include in HTML... perhaps in a supporting document..REL= the meta data doc
17:51:24 <Al> q?
17:51:28 <RichS> that would be great
17:51:36 <RichS> ... an example from Eric
17:51:40 <Lisa> it is in the red tech doc...
17:51:56 <bengt> I can provide some CCF examples for that
17:52:04 <David_MacDonald> Eric can give an example
17:52:48 <David_MacDonald> AL asks Wendy is there a draft... Wendy says latest is on Lisa's site.
17:52:55 <em> lisa, is this it? http://www.ubaccess.com/rdf.html
17:53:05 <Lisa> no
17:53:08 <em> hmm...
17:53:17 <Lisa> that is something else
17:53:27 <Lisa> old old old
17:53:27 <wendy> action: wendy and lisa, send reference to latest rdf techs to xtech
17:54:03 <wendy> action: eric look at rdf techniques and either say "that's it" or edit or provide own example
17:54:14 <David_MacDonald> Action item Eric looks at this and will decide whether to leave it or adapt it. Eric will follow up
17:54:26 <David_MacDonald> You're too fast wendy :-)
17:54:50 <wendy> lisa, here is the last source that i have: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/sources/rdf-tech-src.xml
17:54:59 <wendy> i'm pretty sure the last rdf techs in html was on your site
17:55:13 <Lisa> ok, will look
17:56:01 <David_MacDonald> Eric Haystack like MAX... revolutionary powerful universal viewing client but requires big CPU, open source nerdy thing hard to understand. it's a work in project
17:56:07 <Lisa> have to go folks
17:56:09 <Lisa> buy
17:56:12 <Lisa> Lisa has left #pf
17:56:13 <David_MacDonald> oops not MAX, EMAX
17:56:28 <bengt> emacs ?
17:56:41 <David_MacDonald> ohh
17:57:34 <bengt> <-- will test the haystack
17:57:37 <David_MacDonald> Eric On behalf of Haystack group he would be glad to see it happen
17:59:32 <Zakim> -Lisa
18:00:52 <em> .me does this group know about GRDDL? - http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/
18:01:19 <janina> Need to go--good-bye.
18:01:26 <Zakim> -Janina
18:02:10 <David_MacDonald> AG Open to another meeting, but we will cook on it and discuss it..
18:02:43 <David_MacDonald> GV  WCAG group needs concrete stuff to put in to the GUidelines
18:03:39 <David_MacDonald> AG Al is concerned about backward compatibility how could we implement this so it requiers mimal changes to status quo and predeccessor technologies
18:05:17 <David_MacDonald> EM Next meeting, we will talk RDF XHTL relationship.
18:05:20 <Zakim> -Wendy
18:05:33 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
18:06:06 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:06:08 <Zakim> -EricM
18:06:09 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
18:06:10 <Zakim> -Bengt
18:06:11 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
18:06:13 <Zakim> -Rich
18:06:14 <Zakim> -Gottfried
18:06:15 <Zakim> -Gregg_and_Ben
18:06:16 <Zakim> -David
18:06:17 <Zakim> -Charles
18:06:27 <Zakim> -Matt
18:06:28 <Zakim> WAI_PF()12:00PM has ended
18:06:29 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt, Wendy, Katie, AlGilman, DPoehlman, Lisa?, Gottfried, Rich, Janina, John_Slatin, Bengt, Becky_Gibson, Charles, Gregg_and_Ben, Michael_Cooper, EricM, Lisa, David
18:06:38 <Al> Wendy, should you or I wrap the minutes (post link to XTECH)?
18:06:49 <Michael> Michael has left #pf
18:07:09 <Al> Zakim, bye
18:07:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pf
18:07:40 <bengt> bengt has left #pf
18:07:46 <RichS> RichS has left #pf
18:08:30 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has left #pf
18:08:36 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
18:08:36 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items:
18:08:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy and lisa, send reference to latest rdf techs to xtech [1]
18:08:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-pf-irc#T17-53-27-1
18:08:36 <RRSAgent> ACTION: eric look at rdf techniques and either say "that's it" or edit or provide own example [2]
18:08:36 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/11-pf-irc#T17-54-03