IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-03-04
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:11:45 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:12:02 [wendy]
- morning session:
- 13:12:12 [wendy]
- present:
- 13:12:12 [wendy]
- katie hartiso-shea, cessi
- 13:12:12 [wendy]
- ben caldwell, trace r&d
- 13:12:12 [wendy]
- tom croucher, uni sunderland
- 13:12:12 [wendy]
- eric velleman, bartimeus
- 13:12:13 [wendy]
- henk snetselaar, bartimeus
- 13:12:15 [wendy]
- jose alonso, ficyt (w3c spanish office host, taw)
- 13:12:17 [wendy]
- allistair garrison, accessinmind, ltd
- 13:12:19 [wendy]
- shadi abou-zhara, w3c (ert wg, eowg)
- 13:12:21 [wendy]
- wendy buckley, amadaeus (member, localization, usability)
- 13:12:23 [wendy]
- andrew arch, natl info lib service (Aus), EOWG
- 13:12:25 [wendy]
- lisa seeman, ubaccess
- 13:12:27 [wendy]
- michael cooper, watchfire
- 13:12:29 [wendy]
- wendy chisholm, w3c
- 13:12:31 [wendy]
- ===
- 13:12:33 [wendy]
- afternoon
- 13:12:35 [wendy]
- shadi, michael, ben, tom, jose, wendy
- 13:12:37 [wendy]
- techs submission form
- 13:17:37 [wendy]
- public-wcag2-techs@w3.org
- 13:25:39 [wendy]
- pull-down for category and guideline reference need to be updated for changes in docs
- 13:27:00 [wendy]
- action: tom create the script that will update category based on technology
- 13:27:22 [wendy]
- action: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom
- 13:29:35 [ben]
- action: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft"
- 13:30:03 [sh1m|cannes]
- sh1m|cannes has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:30:17 [ben]
- action: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique
- 13:44:27 [wendy]
- going through gateway bugs
- 13:44:32 [wendy]
- 285: closed
- 13:44:33 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=285
- 13:44:45 [wendy]
- 302: closed
- 13:44:46 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=302
- 13:44:55 [wendy]
- 517: closed
- 13:44:56 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=517
- 13:45:31 [wendy]
- 520: assigned to tom
- 13:45:40 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=520
- 13:45:45 [wendy]
- 521: closed
- 13:45:51 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=521
- 13:48:04 [wendy]
- 522: assigned to tom
- 13:48:05 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=522
- 13:48:21 [wendy]
- 523: assigned to michael
- 13:48:22 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=523
- 13:48:37 [wendy]
- 524
- 13:48:59 [wendy]
- lots of info in latest draft
- 13:50:02 [wendy]
- how much move to gateway vs keep in guidelines/success criteria.
- 13:50:27 [shadi]
- shadi has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:50:28 [wendy]
- probably become guideline issue instead of gateway issue.
- 13:50:43 [wendy]
- it's normative info required for success criteria.
- 13:51:32 [wendy]
- 526; http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=526
- 13:51:40 [wendy]
- we need ids to nth degree, also apply to gateway
- 13:53:31 [wendy]
- action: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish)
- 13:53:56 [wendy]
- assigned to tom
- 13:54:06 [wendy]
- 527: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=527
- 13:54:37 [wendy]
- not link to bugzilla, link to the techniques form
- 13:55:12 [wendy]
- no - about getting to issues from the document
- 13:55:32 [wendy]
- action: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists
- 13:56:43 [wendy]
- action: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear.
- 13:57:51 [wendy]
- possible solution: 404 redirect to query form or main bugzilla page.
- 13:58:10 [wendy]
- 528: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=528
- 13:58:27 [wendy]
- closed. ben fixed the headers.
- 14:01:10 [wendy]
- 529: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=529
- 14:02:12 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html
- 14:02:44 [joseA]
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- 14:04:41 [wendy]
- leave open. tom will fix.
- 14:05:58 [wendy]
- 530 tom pick one
- 14:06:03 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=530
- 14:06:48 [wendy]
- 531: close. leave as is. http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=531
- 14:07:57 [wendy]
- 532: use wording from guidelines (of text equiv)
- 14:07:58 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=532
- 14:09:33 [wendy]
- 533: use wording from guidelines
- 14:09:33 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=533
- 14:10:32 [wendy]
- 534: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=534
- 14:10:45 [wendy]
- sounds html-like
- 14:10:55 [wendy]
- however, controls need to be identified to the user
- 14:12:02 [wendy]
- action: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html
- 14:12:12 [wendy]
- 535: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=535
- 14:14:32 [wendy]
- metaprocess discussion about dealing with ednotes and bugzilla.
- 14:14:56 [wendy]
- resolution: create a bugzilla entry for every ednote and cross reference (bugzilla) from ednote
- 14:15:20 [wendy]
- assigned to tom
- 14:15:41 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=536
- 14:15:43 [wendy]
- closed.
- 14:15:53 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
- 14:17:29 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:17:32 [wendy]
- break in issue tracking.
- 14:17:39 [wendy]
- ian demos Exit
- 14:18:12 [wendy]
- (member access) http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exit/
- 14:40:28 [wendybreak]
- right now, we're too engrained in bugzilla (too much data to transfer)
- 14:40:58 [wendybreak]
- plus, the interface for bugzilla is more interactive (allwos our participants to edit, rather than only editing xml file).
- 14:41:10 [wendybreak]
- look at again in a few months after they complete the xforms interface
- 14:41:27 [wendybreak]
- perhaps at or before last call when will have less open issues to transfer.
- 14:41:34 [wendybreak]
- look into copying their reports.
- 14:41:47 [wendybreak]
- emulate their process via bugzilla.
- 14:41:57 [wendybreak]
- reviewers, tracking communication with
- 14:41:59 [wendybreak]
- (issue)
- 14:42:35 [wendybreak]
- action: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla.
- 14:43:17 [wendybreak]
- perhaps export bugzilla data to their schema and use their tools to create reports.
- 15:06:08 [wendybreak]
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- 15:08:22 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:09:20 [wendy]
- 612: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
- 15:12:19 [wendy]
- leave open. assigned to tom.
- 15:13:31 [wendy]
- 613: leave open. assigned to tom.
- 15:13:32 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=613
- 15:13:39 [wendy]
- also 614 and 615
- 15:13:47 [wendy]
- 651: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=651
- 15:14:25 [wendy]
- assign to tom
- 15:14:33 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=758
- 15:15:26 [wendy]
- an overview of methodology
- 15:15:49 [wendy]
- link to eowg drafts
- 15:15:58 [wendy]
- testing info etc
- 15:16:04 [wendy]
- assign to tom
- 15:16:15 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=762
- 15:19:36 [wendy]
- cms: if content hasn't been generated yet, doesn't know title of where going.
- 15:19:50 [wendy]
- it's one technique for facilitating and understanding.
- 15:19:52 [wendy]
- not a criteria
- 15:20:50 [wendy]
- assigned to tom.
- 15:21:01 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:21:10 [wendy]
- principle 1 intro (tom's preview of proposed text)_
- 15:22:41 [wendy]
- ben has action to write intro to each principle
- 15:23:53 [wendy]
- action: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway)
- 15:25:18 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:25:21 [wendy]
- test matrix
- 15:25:49 [wendy]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/att-0404/draft_test_matrix.html
- 15:29:07 [wendy]
- move hpr to browser not AT
- 15:31:16 [wendy]
- linux:
- 15:31:40 [wendy]
- add emacspeak to linux as browser
- 15:32:16 [wendy]
- add galeon as browser
- 15:32:39 [wendy]
- add lynx and links as browsers
- 15:33:23 [wendy]
- test other devices?
- 15:33:27 [wendy]
- mobile phones (opera)
- 15:33:36 [wendy]
- voicexml browser/phones
- 15:34:14 [wendy]
- consider other platforms and devices
- 15:35:03 [wendy]
- ipacs (linux), jaws on palm of some sort?
- 15:35:45 [wendy]
- (open issue added)
- 15:36:44 [wendy]
- add firefox as browser
- 15:36:50 [wendy]
- add gnomespeak as at
- 15:37:19 [wendy]
- remove ie5
- 15:38:36 [wendy]
- action: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table?
- 15:40:10 [wendy]
- add input ats. speech recognition, keyboard interface, spellchecker/IE, etc.
- 15:40:20 [sh1m|cannes]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/linux/current.html#speech
- 15:41:04 [wendy]
- some of the links are broken, send feedback to trace
- 15:41:59 [wendy]
- add netscape 4, opera 7
- 15:42:13 [wendy]
- konq depend on KDE. what do for versions?
- 15:43:20 [wendy]
- action: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux.
- 15:43:48 [wendy]
- can we assume that people will stay more up-to-date w/linux?
- 15:44:19 [wendy]
- macintosh
- 15:44:29 [wendy]
- delete ie6 on mac
- 15:44:35 [wendy]
- check for versions on safari
- 15:45:00 [wendy]
- issues with running old versions of netscape on macs
- 15:46:08 [wendy]
- generalize: netscape 3 and under group and assign a single priority
- 15:46:14 [wendy]
- add omniweb to list of mac browsers
- 15:46:28 [wendy]
- only screenr eader for mac was outspoken
- 15:46:39 [wendy]
- most others delete
- 15:47:13 [wendy]
- action: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs
- 15:47:25 [wendy]
- action tom: check on apple screen reader
- 15:47:34 [wendy]
- what about OSs that have the ability to enlarge text
- 15:48:25 [wendy]
- include OS features: e.g., windows magnifier, mac speech output
- 15:50:08 [wendy]
- issue: combinations of assistive technologies
- 15:51:48 [wendy]
- add amaya to linux
- 15:53:14 [wendy]
- windows
- 15:53:28 [wendy]
- s/lynx/lynx for windows
- 15:53:36 [wendy]
- s/lynx for dos
- 15:54:13 [wendy]
- screen readers can't interact with dos windows
- 15:54:32 [wendy]
- versions of the assistive technologies
- 15:55:35 [wendy]
- action: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows)
- 15:55:43 [wendy]
- add amaya for mac
- 15:56:02 [wendy]
- supernova (hal+magnifier)
- 15:56:09 [wendy]
- add
- 15:56:22 [wendy]
- magic
- 15:57:00 [wendy]
- magic's table navigation is from older version of jaws
- 15:57:25 [wendy]
- aol have own browser
- 15:57:28 [wendy]
- ?
- 15:57:56 [wendy]
- aol?
- 15:58:24 [wendy]
- other platforms: webtv, other devices, etc.
- 15:58:46 [wendy]
- webtv requires visual access and ability to use remote (system requirement)
- 15:59:43 [wendy]
- break out windows into windows 98? windows xp, windows 2000, win nt
- 16:01:17 [wendy]
- how diff are implementations between nt and xp?
- 16:02:14 [wendy]
- netscape 4.7 on xp?
- 16:03:11 [wendy]
- action: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp?
- 16:03:24 [wendy]
- mac os 9?
- 16:03:47 [wendy]
- add icab to mac
- 16:04:11 [wendy]
- linux: KDE 1, 2
- 16:04:29 [wendy]
- s/KDE 2,3, gnome 1,2
- 16:05:02 [wendy]
- ===
- 16:05:06 [wendy]
- define priorities for test matrix
- 16:07:48 [wendy]
- must, should, may
- 16:07:52 [wendy]
- accept submissions at any level
- 16:07:59 [wendy]
- must - only level verify. not sure how much verify.
- 16:08:31 [wendy]
- notes about at quirks could scare away developers.
- 16:08:43 [wendy]
- "this doesn't work in jaws 4" could result in someone not doing it.
- 16:09:01 [wendy]
- p1 - we have to do ourselves (we need to ensure the fidelity of the test)
- 16:09:18 [wendy]
- p2 - things we can scour other resources for (only testourselves if unsure about)
- 16:09:23 [wendy]
- p3 - things we're not going to do
- 16:09:30 [wendy]
- if we stumble across info, log
- 16:11:45 [wendy]
- p1 - we must obtain test data
- 16:11:53 [wendy]
- p2 - we should try to get decent test data if we can
- 16:11:58 [wendy]
- p3 - nice to have
- 16:12:18 [wendy]
- are there things we exclude from p1?
- 16:12:32 [wendy]
- e.g., no longer supported by company who built? older than x years old?
- 16:13:09 [wendy]
- i.e., what is likely to fall into p1?
- 16:13:12 [wendy]
- common use?
- 16:17:43 [wendy]
- netscape 4.71 pre 2000 (6 came out in 2000)
- 16:18:41 [wendy]
- 4th quarter 1999
- 16:23:07 [wendy]
- look at browser logs
- 16:23:48 [wendy]
- security issues are forcing upgrades
- 16:24:25 [wendy]
- eowg business case benefits is compatibility to older browsers.
- 16:26:37 [wendy]
- action: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with
- 16:26:53 [wendy]
- see if can use it anonymously
- 16:28:17 [wendy]
- action: wac w3c logs
- 16:28:21 [wendy]
- action: ben w3c logs
- 16:28:44 [wendy]
- action: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world
- 16:28:59 [wendy]
- won't get asst. tech use from logs.
- 16:30:07 [wendy]
- to determine p1: look at log data (most commonly used browsers) + a few choice older browsers + some asst techs
- 16:32:06 [wendy]
- cmn via sidar could fidn out s. america
- 16:32:19 [wendy]
- find time categorizing what needs to be done in general sense
- 16:32:29 [wendy]
- this is what we can do...if others want to do more...here you go
- 16:33:54 [wendy]
- other organizations to do testing on certain platforms?
- 16:34:05 [wendy]
- w3cschools (interesting stats)
- 16:34:41 [wendy]
- ie6 72%, moz 9, netscape 4 <1/2%
- 16:34:49 [wendy]
- opera 2% (but it's set to "lie")
- 16:36:41 [wendy]
- usage axis (for browsers). assist. techs - how determine? dno't havfe the same data.
- 16:43:29 [wendy]
- uaag for last call: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/impl-pr2/
- 16:43:38 [wendy]
- select different browsers depending on the test?
- 16:44:56 [wendy]
- does the expected behavior happen? does anything happen?
- 16:45:32 [wendy]
- action: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal
- 16:49:51 [joseA]
- joseA has left #wai-wcag
- 16:51:48 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, help?
- 16:51:48 [wendy]
- I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'help'
- 16:54:28 [wendy]
- rrsagent, make logs world-visible
- 16:54:42 [wendy]
- rrsagent, bye
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- I see 21 open action items:
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom create the script that will update category based on technology [1]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-00
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom [2]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-22
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft" [3]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-29-35
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique [4]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-30-17
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish) [5]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-53-31
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists [6]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-55-32
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear. [7]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-56-43
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html [8]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-12-02
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla. [9]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-35
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway) [10]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-53
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table? [11]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-36
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux. [12]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-20
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs [13]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-13
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom to check on apple screen reader [14]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-25
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows) [15]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-35
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp? [16]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-03-11
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with [17]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-26-37
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac w3c logs [18]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-17
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben w3c logs [19]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-21
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world [20]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-44
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal [21]
- 16:54:42 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-45-32
- 16:54:57 [ben]
- ben has left #wai-wcag