IRC log of webont on 2003-12-18
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:51:28 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #webont
- 16:57:17 [guus]
- guus has joined #webont
- 16:59:35 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
- 16:59:36 [seanb]
- seanb has joined #webont
- 16:59:42 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 17:00:52 [Zakim]
- +??P28
- 17:00:58 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Dean
- 17:01:14 [guus]
- zakim, ??p28 is Guus
- 17:01:14 [Zakim]
- +Guus; got it
- 17:02:41 [guus]
- zakim, who is talking?
- 17:02:52 [Zakim]
- guus, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ??P6 (82%)
- 17:02:58 [Zakim]
- +??P32
- 17:03:05 [IanH]
- IanH has joined #webont
- 17:03:09 [Zakim]
- +Ian_Horrocks
- 17:03:23 [mdean]
- mdean has joined #webont
- 17:03:27 [jjc]
- jjc has joined #webont
- 17:03:33 [Zakim]
- +Deb_Mcguinness
- 17:03:40 [jjc]
- hi
- 17:03:47 [jjc]
- Zakim, who's on the call
- 17:03:47 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's on the call', jjc
- 17:03:50 [jjc]
- Zakim, who's on the call?
- 17:03:50 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P6, Guus, Mike_Dean, ??P32, Ian_Horrocks, Deb_Mcguinness
- 17:04:02 [Zakim]
- +Evan_Wallace
- 17:04:16 [jjc]
- Zakim, mute ??P32
- 17:04:16 [Zakim]
- ??P32 should now be muted
- 17:04:30 [jjc]
- Zakim, ??P32 is jjc
- 17:04:30 [Zakim]
- +jjc; got it
- 17:04:38 [jjc]
- Zakim unmute jjc
- 17:04:43 [jjc]
- Zakim, unmute jjc
- 17:04:43 [Zakim]
- jjc should no longer be muted
- 17:04:48 [Zakim]
- +HermanT
- 17:05:02 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 17:05:14 [Zakim]
- +??P66
- 17:05:29 [jjc]
- Zakim, who is talking?
- 17:05:40 [Zakim]
- jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (25%), ??P66 (20%), HermanT (4%), DanC (4%)
- 17:05:48 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 18Dec. Chair: GuusS scribe: ? http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/
- 17:05:52 [guus]
- zakim, ??p32 is Jeremy
- 17:05:52 [Zakim]
- sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p32'
- 17:06:26 [guus]
- zakim, ??p26 is Yasser
- 17:06:26 [Zakim]
- sorry, guus, I do not recognize a party named '??p26'
- 17:06:34 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 17:06:55 [DanC]
- Zakim, who is on the phone?
- 17:06:55 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Yasser, Guus, Mike_Dean, jjc, Ian_Horrocks, Deb_Mcguinness, Evan_Wallace, HermanT, DanC, SeanB, Sandro
- 17:08:08 [DanC]
- Zakim, agenda?
- 17:08:08 [Zakim]
- I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
- 17:08:09 [Zakim]
- 1. 18Dec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Dec/0067.html [from DanC]
- 17:08:18 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SeanB
- 17:08:33 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 18Dec. Chair: GuusS scribe: jjc http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/
- 17:08:44 [jjcscribe]
- Guus chairs
- 17:08:59 [jjcscribe]
- rollcall above
- 17:09:22 [DanC]
- I'm available 8Jan
- 17:09:40 [Zakim]
- +[UMD]
- 17:09:42 [DanC]
- I'm available 15Jan
- 17:09:53 [jjcscribe]
- Next m,eeting Guus suggests 15th Jan?
- 17:09:56 [Jhendler]
- Jhendler has joined #webont
- 17:10:21 [jjcscribe]
- JimH notes Jan 19th PR ends
- 17:10:24 [jjcscribe]
- Dan seonds proposal from Guus
- 17:10:31 [jjcscribe]
- Next meeting 15th Jan 2004
- 17:10:36 [jjcscribe]
- Agendum 2
- 17:10:54 [jjcscribe]
- Chair proposes thanks to DanC and Sandro
- 17:10:55 [Jhendler]
- zakim, [umd] is jimH
- 17:10:55 [Zakim]
- +jimH; got it
- 17:11:25 [jjcscribe]
- Also tashnks to Jeremy for extra effort and test
- 17:11:49 [jjcscribe]
- (and every editor,
- 17:11:56 [jjcscribe]
- the whole group should feel proud
- 17:12:08 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, mute jjc
- 17:12:08 [Zakim]
- jjc should now be muted
- 17:12:22 [jjcscribe]
- is that better soundwise?
- 17:12:27 [sandro]
- Yes, JJC
- 17:12:30 [jjcscribe]
- not for me
- 17:12:37 [Zakim]
- -jjc
- 17:12:48 [jjcscribe]
- scribe is lost ....
- 17:13:36 [jjcscribe]
- what's the passcode?
- 17:13:42 [DanC]
- Zakim, passcode?
- 17:13:42 [Zakim]
- the conference code is 9326, DanC
- 17:13:51 [Zakim]
- +??P32
- 17:13:55 [jjcscribe]
- scribe back again
- 17:14:04 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, ??P32 is jjc
- 17:14:04 [Zakim]
- +jjc; got it
- 17:14:11 [sandro]
- JimH: EVERYONE please encourage your AC reps to vote.
- 17:14:21 [DanC]
- Hendler: contact AC reps to give formal feedback on our proposed rec; both the org you work for an any W3C member orgs you work with
- 17:14:38 [sandro]
- vote at: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/owlpr/
- 17:15:01 [sandro]
- s/vote/give feedback
- 17:15:19 [jjcscribe]
- danc explains process
- 17:15:26 [jjcscribe]
- for PR and AC review
- 17:16:09 [Jhendler]
- The AC member gets to choose from
- 17:16:10 [Jhendler]
- [# be published as a W3C Recommendation as is.
- 17:16:16 [Jhendler]
- # be published as a W3C Recommendation with minor changes (your details below)
- 17:16:16 [Jhendler]
- # be returned for further work due to substantial issues (your details below)
- 17:16:16 [Jhendler]
- # not be published as a specification, and discontinued as a W3C work item (your details below)
- 17:16:17 [Jhendler]
- # My organization abstains from this review]
- 17:16:21 [sandro]
- (also RDF Core : http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/33280/rdfpr/ )
- 17:17:28 [Jhendler]
- also an invitation to be involved with the publicity
- 17:18:13 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, mute jjc
- 17:18:13 [Zakim]
- jjc should now be muted
- 17:18:44 [jjcscribe]
- AC vote advises director
- 17:19:11 [sandro]
- DanC: Things that mostly count are: My Org wants this (going to build products) and We don't want to this to go forward (and here's why).
- 17:19:48 [jjcscribe]
- detailed discussion of form
- 17:20:43 [jjcscribe]
- AOB entry sean's note added number 7
- 17:21:10 [jjcscribe]
- Approve minutes of last call ---
- 17:21:23 [jjcscribe]
- 3.0 Dan 2nds - approved
- 17:21:25 [DanC]
- minutes of last call (Nov 13)
- 17:21:25 [DanC]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Nov/0064.html
- 17:21:32 [jjcscribe]
- thanks dan
- 17:21:51 [jjcscribe]
- Action items 4.0 - amnesty on all actioons
- 17:22:10 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, unmute jjc
- 17:22:10 [Zakim]
- jjc should no longer be muted
- 17:22:16 [Zakim]
- +??P40
- 17:22:18 [jjcscribe]
- People may do actions if they want
- 17:22:25 [dlm]
- dlm has joined #webont
- 17:22:43 [jjcscribe]
- Agendum 5 QA review
- 17:22:48 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, mute jjc
- 17:22:48 [Zakim]
- jjc should now be muted
- 17:23:00 [jjcscribe]
- cf
- 17:23:21 [jjcscribe]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Dec/0065.html
- 17:23:42 [jjcscribe]
- We were building a case study for their guidelines ....
- 17:23:47 [jjcscribe]
- that was part II
- 17:24:02 [DanC]
- fyi, jeremy, Zakim has a new feature where it tells everybody that was on the phone at any time during the call when it's dismissed
- 17:24:13 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, unmute jjc
- 17:24:13 [Zakim]
- jjc should no longer be muted
- 17:26:02 [jjcscribe]
- JimH suggest separating part I and II as two separate msgs
- 17:26:52 [jjcscribe]
- i.e. I and III in one msg and II in a separate piece
- 17:27:45 [Zakim]
- +[EDS]
- 17:28:02 [Jhendler]
- zakim, [eds] is mike smith
- 17:28:02 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '[eds] is mike smith', Jhendler
- 17:28:12 [jjcscribe]
- left as editorial decision for Evan and Jeremy ...
- 17:28:13 [Jhendler]
- zakim, [EDS] is mike smith
- 17:28:13 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '[EDS] is mike smith', Jhendler
- 17:28:25 [Jhendler]
- zakim, [EDS] is mikeSmith
- 17:28:25 [Zakim]
- +mikeSmith; got it
- 17:29:21 [jjcscribe]
- Jeremy suggests www-qa www-qa-wg
- 17:29:31 [jjcscribe]
- as places to send this comment
- 17:29:50 [DanC]
- "You may email comments on this document to www-qa@w3.org, the publicly archived list"
- 17:30:33 [jjcscribe]
- DanC "wholly endorses review"
- 17:31:17 [jjcscribe]
- Proposal to approve review with edits agreed, and editorial discretion to Evan
- 17:31:31 [jjcscribe]
- (will go out today or tomorrow)
- 17:31:37 [jjcscribe]
- Connolly seconds
- 17:31:54 [jjcscribe]
- No objections
- 17:32:16 [jjcscribe]
- Hendler Schriber Carroll
- 17:32:20 [jjcscribe]
- lots in favour
- 17:32:33 [jjcscribe]
- no abstentions
- 17:33:05 [jjcscribe]
- Thanks to Evan and Jeremy for review
- 17:33:14 [jjcscribe]
- (particularly Evan! - scribe)
- 17:33:26 [jjcscribe]
- 6 Handling of errors
- 17:33:29 [jjcscribe]
- DanC:
- 17:34:11 [jjcscribe]
- Proposed Rec is end of WG works
- 17:34:18 [jjcscribe]
- the recs belong to director
- 17:34:54 [jjcscribe]
- Question: there is a type s/all/some/ in an example
- 17:35:16 [jjcscribe]
- DanC says make change in editors draft ... cost of change is high
- 17:36:13 [jjcscribe]
- AC reps may make comments which may include fixes
- 17:37:07 [jjcscribe]
- AC votes can add comments after having voted
- 17:37:28 [jjcscribe]
- fixing typos is OK -
- 17:37:49 [jjcscribe]
- must not cross line where someone who voted for PR is unhappy with REC
- 17:39:34 [jjcscribe]
- there is a problem with minor versus major change ...
- 17:40:08 [jjcscribe]
- DanC prefers concrete discussion ...
- 17:40:29 [jjcscribe]
- First issue XMLLiteral - Herman
- 17:40:51 [jjcscribe]
- S&AS is normative description of OWL Semantics
- 17:41:42 [sandro]
- "They are intended to provide examples for, and clarification of, the normative definition of OWL found in [OWL Semantics and Abstract Syntax] to which this document is subsidiary."
- 17:41:59 [DanC]
- "They are intended to provide examples for, and clarification of, the normative definition of OWL found in [OWL Semantics and Abstract Syntax] to which this document is subsidiary."
- 17:42:34 [jjcscribe]
- Many members agree that S&AS is *the* normative defn
- 17:43:26 [DanC]
- "my message of a few days ago" is ambiguous; I'm aware of several
- 17:44:59 [jjcscribe]
- Herman makes the point that the text of test misc-201-204 needs to change in his position.
- 17:45:36 [jjcscribe]
- Herman suggests looking at msg 68
- 17:45:52 [jjcscribe]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Dec/0068.html
- 17:48:12 [DanC]
- misc-201 to misc-205
- 17:48:21 [Jhendler]
- jeremy - discusses implicit vs. explicit nature of the XMLLiteral rec, and describes some test cases
- 17:48:55 [seanb]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/misc-200-xmlliteral#miscellaneous-201
- 17:49:21 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/misc-200-xmlliteral#misc-200-xmlliteral
- 17:51:10 [Zakim]
- -Yasser
- 17:51:13 [jjcscribe]
- horrocks I think it is explicit that rdf:XMLLiteral is not required
- 17:51:24 [jjcscribe]
- DanC what do our implementors think?
- 17:52:29 [jjcscribe]
- Hendler: if you have not added reasoning for rdf:XMLLiteral then test 205 comes out this way
- 17:52:32 [sandro]
- Note that test results have F-OWL, Pellet, OWLP, and Hoolet as passing misc-205, and ConVISor as failing it.
- 17:52:50 [jjcscribe]
- Herman: S&AS has normative ref to RDF Semantics
- 17:52:52 [sandro]
- (and no others)
- 17:55:41 [jjcscribe]
- Herman points to D interpretations being imported in section 5 of S&AS from RDF Semantics
- 17:55:57 [jjcscribe]
- D interpretations in RDF Semantics have rdf:XMLLiteral
- 17:59:15 [jjcscribe]
- Definition: Let D be a datatype map that includes datatypes for xsd:integer and xsd:string. An OWL interpretation, I = < RI, PI, EXTI, SI, LI, LVI >, of a vocabulary V, where V includes the RDF and RDFS vocabularies and the OWL vocabulary, is a D-interpretation of V that satisfies all the constraints in this section.
- 17:59:54 [Jhendler]
- But... -- if I run test 205 through an RDF system which supports the RDF data map for XMLLiteral, that system will do the right thing as detailed in our test
- 18:00:09 [jjcscribe]
- D-interpretations must meet several other conditions, as detailed in the RDF semantics.
- 18:00:45 [jjcscribe]
- Herman: "this is a sumamry section to help the reader" this is not a complete repeat of RDF semantics
- 18:01:02 [jjcscribe]
- they allows S&AS to be read on its own
- 18:01:15 [Jhendler]
- or should I say - run it through an RDF parser w functional added...
- 18:03:28 [jjcscribe]
- Horrocks: section3 definitely does not contain this condition
- 18:05:14 [jjcscribe]
- Herman: tests depend on section 5
- 18:05:24 [jjcscribe]
- Carroll: no Lite and DL tests depend on section 3
- 18:06:53 [jjcscribe]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/#testConsistency
- 18:07:28 [sandro]
- Stepping back of a sec, I'm really worried about this idea that every OWL system MUST supposed XML Literal. Supporting XML Literal is likely to be a royal pain.
- 18:07:52 [guus]
- guus has joined #webont
- 18:08:01 [Jhendler]
- q
- 18:08:02 [DanC]
- when the WG considered that explicitly, sandro, we decided XML Literal support is not necessary. but it seems that perhaps a bug has crept in somewhere
- 18:08:16 [sandro]
- "somewhere" == "RDF COre".
- 18:08:54 [DanC]
- well, I don't think RDF Core created a bug; I think they changed something, and we didn't fully consider the impact of the change on our earlier decisions
- 18:08:56 [sandro]
- They said every RDF system must support XML Literal; we only said OWL (Full?) systems were RDF systems.
- 18:08:59 [guus]
- q?
- 18:09:16 [jjcscribe]
- Herman: if OWL DL does not support rdf:XMLLiteral then it is not a semantic ext of RDFS
- 18:09:35 [sandro]
- Right -- but it strikes me as a bad idea for RDF Core to require XMLLiteral of very RDF systems.
- 18:10:48 [Zakim]
- +Sandro.a
- 18:11:13 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 18:11:50 [jjcscribe]
- DanC: what changes do people want?
- 18:12:48 [jjcscribe]
- Herman: add rdf:XMLLiteral to ... list of datatypes in section3
- 18:14:57 [jjcscribe]
- Carroll, could support change technically but not at cost of going back
- 18:15:34 [jjcscribe]
- Horrocks we have explicitly voted to not support rdf:XMLLiteral
- 18:15:58 [jjcscribe]
- ter Horst This is a deviation from what S&AS says
- 18:17:33 [jjcscribe]
- Herman claims to have a test case, Horrocks believes it
- 18:18:25 [jjcscribe]
- Herman's example msg 58
- 18:18:42 [jjcscribe]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Dec/0058.html
- 18:18:48 [DanC]
- Horrocks: ill-formed XML literal is inconsitent in an RDF D-interpretation but not in OWL Lite/DL
- 18:21:25 [jjcscribe]
- (that is same as herman's example)
- 18:22:26 [jjcscribe]
- DanC reiterates that cost of change is high
- 18:23:22 [jjcscribe]
- Carrroll asks about s/datatype tehory/datatype map/
- 18:24:03 [jjcscribe]
- Herman proposed change in section 3
- 18:24:10 [jjcscribe]
- Carroll suggested only in section 5
- 18:25:00 [jjcscribe]
- Herman believes Carroll proposal is better than no change
- 18:25:21 [Jhendler]
- test 201 says - Datatypes that may or may not be supported:
- 18:25:52 [Jhendler]
- which is ambiguous enough to be fine (i.e. can be interepreted as supported in Full, not supported in Lite)
- 18:27:45 [DanC]
- Carrol: [my proposal?] is mainly taking "full" out of test 205
- 18:28:50 [jjcscribe]
- ACTION carroll expand proposal to modify 205 without Full
- 18:28:57 [jjcscribe]
- Ian can't make the 8th
- 18:31:39 [jjcscribe]
- Carroll - business arguments take precedence over technical arguments
- 18:31:58 [DanC]
- in general, business and technical interact in non-linear ways
- 18:32:41 [jjcscribe]
- Chair moved an extension
- 18:32:53 [jjcscribe]
- ACTION carroll propose theory to map change
- 18:33:32 [Jhendler]
- I second the proposal to make Sean's doc a WG Note if team contact will support hat
- 18:33:36 [Jhendler]
- s/hat/that
- 18:33:42 [jjcscribe]
- SeanB's note
- 18:33:55 [jjcscribe]
- Zakim, who's on the call?
- 18:33:55 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Guus, Mike_Dean, Ian_Horrocks, Deb_Mcguinness, Evan_Wallace, HermanT, DanC, SeanB, jimH, jjc, CharlesW, mikeSmith, Sandro
- 18:34:13 [seanb]
- we can hear you!
- 18:34:17 [Jhendler]
- we hear sandro - he doesn't hear us
- 18:34:53 [jjcscribe]
- reuest to sandro to act as team contact for publishing WG note (SeanB's doc)
- 18:35:16 [jjcscribe]
- Guus proposes publishing Sean's note
- 18:35:21 [jjcscribe]
- as WG note
- 18:35:25 [jjcscribe]
- Carroll and others second
- 18:35:31 [jjcscribe]
- no objection, no abstention
- 18:35:35 [jjcscribe]
- thanks to Sean
- 18:35:52 [jjcscribe]
- ACTION Sandro To act as team contact for WG note.
- 18:35:56 [DanC]
- (jjc, note that who seconds isn't important for W3C process; a 2nd helps the chair detect non-trivial support for a proposal)
- 18:36:34 [jjcscribe]
- Annotations left til 15th
- 18:36:44 [jjcscribe]
- ACTION chairs Add annotationproperties to agenda for 15th
- 18:36:49 [jjcscribe]
- FYI DanC
- 18:37:10 [jjcscribe]
- There is charter for Best practice WG
- 18:37:36 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/#Current
- 18:37:46 [DanC]
- $Revision: 1.292 $
- 18:37:59 [jjcscribe]
- Tentative date for kick off for best practices at tehc plenary
- 18:39:05 [jjcscribe]
- Call for discussion on charter of BP group to take places in Cannes
- 18:39:12 [jjcscribe]
- WebOnt WG will not be meeting in Cannes
- 18:39:37 [jjcscribe]
- There will be a party for WebOnt WG members at Cannes
- 18:39:51 [Zakim]
- -Evan_Wallace
- 18:39:53 [Zakim]
- -mikeSmith
- 18:39:53 [jjcscribe]
- (Carroll complains that party is not part of the process)
- 18:39:56 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 18:39:57 [Zakim]
- -jimH
- 18:39:58 [Zakim]
- -Ian_Horrocks
- 18:40:01 [Zakim]
- -HermanT
- 18:40:02 [Zakim]
- -Deb_Mcguinness
- 18:40:03 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 18:40:04 [Zakim]
- -jjc
- 18:40:05 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Dean
- 18:40:06 [Zakim]
- -Guus
- 18:40:07 [Zakim]
- -CharlesW
- 18:40:08 [Zakim]
- -SeanB
- 18:40:09 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
- 18:40:11 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Mike_Dean, Guus, Ian_Horrocks, Deb_Mcguinness, Evan_Wallace, jjc, HermanT, DanC, Sandro, SeanB, Yasser, jimH, CharlesW, mikeSmith
- 18:40:20 [DanC]
- hmm... jeremy, clearly we need an ISO9000-certified party, yes?
- 18:40:38 [DanC]
- ;-)
- 18:40:52 [Jhendler]
- point to RalphS for "attendees were..." nice zakim change!!
- 18:41:07 [DanC]
- yeah, Zakim's got some new features.
- 18:41:09 [DanC]
- Zakim, help?
- 18:41:09 [Zakim]
- Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help.
- 18:41:11 [Zakim]
- Some of the commands I know are:
- 18:41:12 [Zakim]
- xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
- 18:41:14 [Zakim]
- if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
- 18:41:16 [Zakim]
- xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
- 18:41:18 [Zakim]
- I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
- 18:41:20 [Zakim]
- xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
- 18:41:22 [Zakim]
- xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
- 18:41:24 [Zakim]
- who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
- 18:41:26 [Zakim]
- who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
- 18:41:28 [Zakim]
- mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
- 18:41:30 [Zakim]
- unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
- 18:41:32 [Zakim]
- is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
- 18:41:34 [Zakim]
- list conferences - reports the active conferences
- 18:41:35 [Zakim]
- this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
- 18:41:36 [Zakim]
- excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
- 18:41:37 [Zakim]
- I last learned something new on $Date: 2003/12/11 14:46:58 $
- 18:41:45 [Jhendler]
- very nice
- 18:56:51 [Jhendler]
- Jhendler has joined #webont