IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-09-04

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:48:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:48:42 [rscano]
hi wendy
19:49:16 [wendy]
regrets: Loretta, Roberto Ellero, Doyle Burnett, Michael Cooper
19:49:19 [wendy]
hello
19:49:25 [Yvette]
Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
19:49:26 [rscano]
agenda?
19:49:33 [Yvette]
Hello everyone
19:49:51 [rscano]
hi Yvette
19:57:40 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:57:41 [Zakim]
+Dave_MacDonald
19:57:49 [rscano]
nice song dave :)
19:58:31 [Yvette]
It's sooo silly :-D
19:58:33 [Zakim]
+??P18
19:58:34 [Zakim]
-??P18
19:58:35 [Zakim]
+??P18
19:59:09 [Zakim]
+Sailesh_Panchang
19:59:23 [Zakim]
+??P20
19:59:42 [rscano]
zakim, ++??P20 is Yvette
19:59:42 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named '++??P20'
19:59:43 [Yvette]
Zakim, +??P20 is Yvette_Hoitink
19:59:43 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not recognize a party named '+??P20'
19:59:51 [Zakim]
-??P18
20:00:10 [Yvette]
Zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:10 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink'
20:00:12 [Zakim]
+??P18
20:00:24 [Zakim]
+??P21
20:00:24 [Yvette]
Zakim, +??P20 is Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:25 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette, I do not recognize a party named '+??P20'
20:00:31 [rscano]
zakim, ??P21 is Roberto_Scano
20:00:31 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
20:00:32 [Yvette]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:33 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P20, ??P18, Roberto_Scano
20:00:45 [Yvette]
Zakim, ??P20 is Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:45 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink; got it
20:00:46 [Zakim]
+m3m
20:00:52 [Yvette]
Zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:52 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:58 [Yvette]
Zakim, mute me
20:00:58 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:00:59 [rscano]
zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
20:00:59 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
20:01:00 [m3mSEA]
m3mSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:22 [rscano]
zakim, who is here?
20:01:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), ??P18, Roberto_Scano, m3m
20:01:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see m3mSEA, Yvette, RRSAgent, wendy, Zakim, rscano, ChrisR
20:01:25 [Zakim]
+Wendy
20:01:28 [Zakim]
+Avi_Arditti
20:01:34 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), ??P18, Roberto_Scano, m3m, Wendy, Avi_Arditti
20:01:37 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
20:01:37 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:02:33 [Zakim]
+??P25
20:02:42 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:02:42 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:02:50 [wendy]
zakim, ??P25 is Ben-and-Gregg
20:02:50 [Zakim]
+Ben-and-Gregg; got it
20:03:10 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:20 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
20:03:51 [wendy]
http://davidmacd.com/web_pages/wcag_theme.htm
20:07:42 [Yvette]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:07:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Roberto_Scano, m3m, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Ben-and-Gregg, JasonWhite
20:07:50 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
20:08:13 [wendy]
mute Cynthia
20:08:25 [rscano]
zakim, mute Cynthia
20:08:25 [Zakim]
Cynthia_Shelly should now be muted
20:08:49 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:09:00 [rscano]
agenda?
20:09:20 [wendy]
zakim, take up agendum 1
20:09:20 [Zakim]
agendum 1. ""http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/buglist.cgi?bug_id=320%2C323%2C330%2C331%2C344%2C346&bugidtype=include&order=bugs.bug_id"" taken up [from rscano]
20:09:33 [Zakim]
+John_Slatin
20:09:58 [wendy]
roberto - did you just join the call?
20:10:01 [rscano]
no
20:10:57 [wendy]
320 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=320
20:12:45 [wendy]
ack John
20:13:01 [wendy]
strike phrase "expressed in words."
20:13:08 [GVAN]
q+
20:13:11 [wendy]
"reasonable number of words" is ambiguous
20:13:43 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:14:00 [wendy]
if don't have the defn, then require performances be required in words
20:14:27 [wendy]
q+
20:15:43 [wendy]
no one puts mona lisa on the web so that people can enjoy the masterpiece created by da Vinci. you are not seeing the original work of art.
20:15:56 [wendy]
using technology to take advantage of things. thus, purpose is educational.
20:16:19 [wendy]
that which is describable is describable.
20:16:58 [wendy]
described
20:17:25 [silvia]
silvia has joined #wai-wcag
20:17:47 [GVAN]
q+
20:17:52 [wendy]
ack cynthia
20:18:45 [wendy]
have to do something either way.
20:19:09 [wendy]
got rid of the concept, have a single criteria that would cover both.
20:19:32 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Isn't it enough to give best practices about what useful equivalents are?"
20:19:34 [wendy]
whether break into 2 pieces have to do something for all images.
20:19:41 [wendy]
testability - how you know which you have to fulfill.
20:20:19 [wendy]
alt-text of mona lisa often be, "the mona lisa"
20:20:41 [wendy]
have the problem whether we use the phrase or not
20:21:01 [wendy]
exceptions for works of art?
20:21:03 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:22:45 [Yvette]
zakim, who's talking?
20:22:48 [wendy]
zakim, mute cynthia
20:22:48 [Zakim]
Cynthia_Shelly should now be muted
20:22:56 [Zakim]
Yvette, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Scano (63%), Ben-and-Gregg (94%), Cynthia_Shelly (18%)
20:23:06 [rscano]
zakim, mute me
20:23:06 [Zakim]
Roberto_Scano should now be muted
20:23:07 [wendy]
context and purpose is not well-reflected in the checkpoint.
20:23:25 [wendy]
describing "text equivalent" which is a phrase people are familiar with.
20:23:39 [wendy]
also, what about null alt-text. does null label satisfy?
20:23:58 [wendy]
function is part of content.
20:24:06 [wendy]
if null function, null equivalent.
20:24:53 [wendy]
Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the same function or purpose as auditory or visual content.
20:25:04 [wendy]
Provide equivalent alternatives to auditory and visual content.
20:25:17 [wendy]
Provide a text equivalent for every non-text element
20:25:28 [wendy]
ack GVAN
20:25:30 [wendy]
ack John
20:25:45 [GVAN]
q+
20:26:46 [wendy]
may be things that i can describe in words that you can't. the fact that i can't describe them doesn't mean they can't be described.
20:26:53 [wendy]
who gets to decide what can or can not be expressed in words?
20:27:39 [Yvette]
q-
20:27:50 [wendy]
verbal descriptions of performances are not equivalents. they are valuable, but not equivalent.
20:28:45 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Combine checkpoints, give guidelines for effective text equivalents"
20:28:55 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:28:55 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Combine checkpoints, give guidelines for effective text equivalents"
20:29:34 [wendy]
combine criteria so that get rid of "can or can not be expressed in words" then give guidance about providing a good equivalent?
20:29:54 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:31:48 [wendy]
worry that we are pushing hard to get too much into the requirements.
20:32:01 [wendy]
want people to see this as doable rather than it being absolutely ideal
20:32:16 [wendy]
if make the absolute statement, can't do them
20:32:36 [wendy]
if use text alternative instead of text equivalent, then "picture" can be ok for a picture
20:33:37 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
20:33:52 [Zakim]
+Cynthia_Shelly
20:34:01 [wendy]
ack cynthia
20:34:32 [wendy]
"provide a text equivalent or a description" then explain when to use which.
20:34:42 [wendy]
requirement - one or other. non-normative guidance about when to use which.
20:34:54 [wendy]
if use magnifying glass for search, that would work.
20:35:02 [wendy]
assume that people try to do the right thing.
20:35:48 [wendy]
"function or purpose and if not possible a description"
20:36:36 [wendy]
leave it up to the author what is possible. would people argue about "if possible"? doesn't matter, have to do something either way.
20:36:40 [wendy]
ack john
20:36:45 [wendy]
zakim, mute cynthia
20:36:45 [Zakim]
Cynthia_Shelly should now be muted
20:37:23 [wendy]
assume there has been dissatisfaction in wcag 1.0 and 508, is that true?
20:37:36 [wendy]
(and that's why we're discussing?)
20:38:13 [wendy]
q+ to describe reactions have heard about 1.0
20:38:32 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Current criteria forces text equivalents for pictures used for presentational purposes only"
20:41:05 [wendy]
provide alternative text that expresses the function or purpose and if that is not possible provide a description
20:41:42 [wendy]
Provide content that, when presented to the user, conveys essentially the same function or purpose as auditory or visual content.
20:42:05 [wendy]
if not possible to achieve the same purpose or function with text, provide a description
20:42:43 [wendy]
action: john rewrite proposal for checkpoint 1.1. based on today's discussion
20:42:46 [wendy]
ack wend
20:42:46 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to describe reactions have heard about 1.0
20:42:52 [wendy]
q-
20:43:12 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:43:12 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Current criteria forces text equivalents for pictures used for presentational purposes only"
20:44:34 [wendy]
avoid get double-reading of words if have text equivalent as well as visible caption.
20:44:52 [wendy]
if graphic has text equiv written next to it ok. we don't say it has to be provided in alt attribute.
20:44:59 [wendy]
(in html case)
20:45:20 [wendy]
ack cynthia
20:45:55 [wendy]
provide a text equiv or desc. text equiv already defined (as "same function") is description defined?
20:46:06 [wendy]
success criteria says, when possible or not, preferences, etc.
20:46:10 [wendy]
zakim, mute cynthia
20:46:10 [Zakim]
Cynthia_Shelly should now be muted
20:46:27 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
20:46:27 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:49:28 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=330
20:51:27 [wendy]
a reader should have a mechanism to figure out what the words on a page mean
20:52:18 [wendy]
would cover abbreviations, acronyms, foreign phrases, etc.
20:53:44 [Yvette]
q+ to say "In HTML something like this _does_ exist, Link rel=glossary"
20:54:20 [Yvette]
ack Yvette
20:54:21 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "In HTML something like this _does_ exist, Link rel=glossary"
20:54:30 [Zakim]
-Cynthia_Shelly
20:55:04 [rscano]
<LINK REL=Glossary HREF="foo.html">
20:55:45 [wendy]
q+
20:56:37 [wendy]
what about legacy content that you can't modify?
20:56:42 [wendy]
q-
20:57:18 [wendy]
nest links to glossaries?
20:57:33 [wendy]
don't think so, b/c UAs only give one glossary link
20:57:42 [rscano]
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/types.html#type-links
20:58:28 [wendy]
q+
20:59:15 [wendy]
ack q
21:00:04 [GVAN]
ack wendy
21:00:05 [wendy]
something that allows for machine-readable semantics associated w/content.
21:00:19 [wendy]
doesn't require, but allow for.
21:00:28 [bazzmann]
bazzmann has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:37 [silvia]
sorry, I must go. Bye.
21:00:43 [wendy]
ciao silvia
21:00:49 [wendy]
hello marco
21:00:51 [silvia]
ciao wendy!
21:00:56 [Yvette]
bye Silvia
21:00:59 [Zakim]
+??P7
21:01:02 [bazzmann]
hello wendy
21:01:06 [wendy]
q+
21:01:06 [bazzmann]
hello all
21:01:10 [silvia]
bye all!
21:01:17 [silvia]
silvia has left #wai-wcag
21:01:25 [wendy]
zakim, ??P7 Lisa_Seeman
21:01:25 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P7 Lisa_Seeman', wendy
21:01:32 [wendy]
zakim, ??P7 is Lisa_Seeman
21:01:32 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
21:02:12 [rscano]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:02:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Sailesh_Panchang, Yvette_Hoitink, Andi_Snow-Weaver, Roberto_Scano (muted), m3m, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Ben-and-Gregg, JasonWhite, John_Slatin,
21:02:15 [Zakim]
... Lisa_Seeman
21:05:07 [wendy]
extended or core?
21:14:25 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Example of UA support: Opera gives you a dictionary and encyclopedia link when doubleclicking a word"
21:15:03 [Zakim]
-Avi_Arditti
21:16:14 [wendy]
issue: concern that there needs to be a core checkpoint that addresses understanding.
21:16:22 [Yvette]
q-
21:16:22 [wendy]
desire to form a task force to investigate.
21:16:25 [wendy]
q-
21:17:53 [wendy]
discussion about how this seems to be resolving around one company and the price of their technology. wouldn't we have a greater impact by working with assistive technologies rather than asking the world of authors to change.
21:19:46 [wendy]
we don't have a more general requirement about semantic markup (beyond abbreviations, etc.)
21:20:58 [wendy]
action: jason propose a checkpoint about semantic markup
21:24:42 [bazzmann]
wendy, I agree with jason, I think now is a good time to introduce checkpoint about semantic markup.
21:26:07 [rscano]
the "scope" modification was approved?
21:26:27 [Zakim]
-Andi_Snow-Weaver
21:26:30 [Zakim]
-m3m
21:26:31 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
21:26:32 [Zakim]
-Sailesh_Panchang
21:26:33 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
21:26:34 [Zakim]
-Ben-and-Gregg
21:26:34 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
21:26:34 [wendy]
zakim, bye
21:26:34 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:26:40 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
21:26:40 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
21:26:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john rewrite proposal for checkpoint 1.1. based on today's discussion [1]
21:26:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/09/04-wai-wcag-irc#T20-42-43
21:26:40 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jason propose a checkpoint about semantic markup [2]
21:26:40 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/09/04-wai-wcag-irc#T21-20-58