IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-07-30
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 14:02:02 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:09 [Zakim]
- Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:14 [wendy]
- zakim, list conferences
- 14:02:14 [Zakim]
- I see SW_()9:00AM, DI_DIWG()10:00AM, Team_W3M()8:00AM, WS_ArchWG(wsd f2f)9:00AM, WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM active
- 14:02:16 [Zakim]
- also scheduled at this time is WS_ArchWG(f2f)9:00AM
- 14:02:27 [wendy]
- zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
- 14:02:27 [Zakim]
- ok, wendy
- 14:03:02 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:03:53 [ben]
- ben has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:03:55 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 14:06:00 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 14:06:00 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see ??P13, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
- 14:06:14 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P13 is Ben
- 14:06:14 [Zakim]
- +Ben; got it
- 14:07:49 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:08:51 [wendy]
- gateway techniques
- 14:08:55 [wendy]
- way to include checklist items?
- 14:11:58 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20030723.html
- 14:20:38 [wendy]
- week of 8 sept in toronto for tech task force f2f?
- 14:23:24 [wendy]
- action: wac check with people possibilities for toronto tech tas force f2f on 8 sept (roberto, loretta - since have been active in wednesday calls)
- 14:23:28 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:24:25 [wendy]
- HTML techs, lists
- 14:24:32 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#lists-techs
- 14:30:12 [wendy]
- propose 2 techniques for lists: 1. how to use lists appropriately 2. issues w/older ATs not supporting documents. then in conformance profile then you can state which levels of tech you are supporting.
- 14:30:47 [wendy]
- we can't not talk about issues of older techs yet if a core technique to write cues into lists, then creating unreasonable technique.
- 14:32:35 [wendy]
- currently, only 2 techniques. 1 says use numbered lists, but requires use of css.
- 14:33:55 [wendy]
- don't say anything about bullet lists, except how to change bullets w/css
- 14:34:02 [wendy]
- type attribute deprecated in html.
- 14:34:24 [wendy]
- an html wg issue since people want to use it. can't use a, b, c lists.
- 14:35:20 [wendy]
- devs have asked html wg to put it back
- 14:36:05 [wendy]
- 1. proposal for unordered lists
- 14:36:30 [wendy]
- 2. ordered list needs work, exapmles that don't rely on css
- 14:36:57 [wendy]
- 3. proposal for supporting older ATs who don't handle nested lists well
- 14:37:43 [wendy]
- however, techniques to use to make it obvious are more gateway techniques b/c not html specific, requires changes to writing style or css
- 14:39:11 [wendy]
- gateway? apply to other technologies? pdf?
- 14:40:01 [wendy]
- action: wac proposals for list techniques
- 14:40:32 [wendy]
- 4. proposal for how to use definition lists (as well as how not to use it)
- 14:41:05 [wendy]
- directory list and menu list are deprecated? say don't use?
- 14:41:25 [wendy]
- used to see dir as an indentation hack.
- 14:41:35 [wendy]
- covered by use tech according to spec
- 14:41:58 [wendy]
- a technique for "use a validator?"
- 14:42:32 [wendy]
- technique should be, "the content validates" determining how it validates is up to the user.
- 14:45:25 [wendy]
- types of techniques: required, best practice, additional ideas?
- 14:45:54 [wendy]
- (i.e., if they map back to success criteria)
- 14:46:04 [wendy]
- a few months ago said best practices don't have techniques.
- 14:46:53 [wendy]
- could say, "required success criteria *must* have an associated technique, best practice success criteria *may* have an associated technique"
- 14:47:27 [wendy]
- using "best practice" ala recent developments or how they used to be?
- 14:47:31 [wendy]
- bit of both
- 14:48:26 [wendy]
- ===
- 14:48:27 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#tables
- 14:48:28 [wendy]
- tables
- 14:49:11 [wendy]
- state of current proposals?
- 14:49:19 [wendy]
- accepted on the list
- 14:49:31 [wendy]
- controversial left out of the list.
- 14:49:56 [wendy]
- details: can be a caption, but no details about what can be in it?
- 14:50:19 [wendy]
- left summary out of hte proposals
- 14:51:58 [wendy]
- kynn said, if make summary mandatory feed back to html group (like alt on images).
- 14:52:33 [wendy]
- action: chris continue proposals on tables (contents of caption and summary)
- 14:53:16 [wendy]
- summary mandatory? seems diff than making alt mandatory.
- 14:55:11 [wendy]
- way to say what kind of table it is? layout never can have th? still a mechanism to allow for (th in layout)?
- 14:55:23 [wendy]
- way could do that is class or title that says, "this is layout"
- 14:55:28 [wendy]
- advantage of th in layout?
- 14:56:05 [wendy]
- misuse of structural element can confuse users.
- 14:56:33 [wendy]
- have semantic meaning of being a heading
- 14:56:59 [wendy]
- th should only be used if identifying a heading of some sort that is labeling a row or column of data.
- 14:57:11 [wendy]
- if heading isn't doing that, then use a regular hn element
- 14:57:47 [wendy]
- do we allow people to bend the rule (no th in layout table)?
- 14:57:59 [wendy]
- there are many reasons for it. don't think people should bend it.
- 15:00:00 [wendy]
- in checklists, if there aren't techniques to support what you want to do, there is a mechanism to say "i've satisfied this checkpoint by doing the following..." and hopefully we'll get a new technique to review.
- 15:07:51 [wendy]
- therefore, talking about a more general issue: how bendable are these rules?
- 15:08:07 [wendy]
- can we say something more general or need to handle on a case-by-case basis?
- 15:08:32 [wendy]
- lean towards case-by-case because depends on technology support.
- 15:09:14 [wendy]
- tangent: absolute/relative units of measure
- 15:12:25 [wendy]
- guidelines are getting better, i.e., using absolute under some conditions (updating techniques w/conditions for use) and also have a way out that allows dev to say "i've satisfied this in this way..."
- 15:12:31 [wendy]
- don't worry about case of th in layout tables.
- 15:13:32 [wendy]
- caption: must not be used in layout tables and may/should be used in data tables
- 15:15:49 [wendy]
- action: wac clean-up table section, incorporate chris' proposals
- 15:17:40 [wendy]
- wcag 1.0 says "either provide linear or make sure table linearizes" propose change to "make sure tables linearizes"
- 15:18:04 [wendy]
- ben found that reading order success criterion got left out by mistake. related to this issue.
- 15:20:08 [wendy]
- like lists, a technique that says provide a linear reading order (like w3c site, button to linearize)
- 15:21:05 [wendy]
- issue when strip table markup and page not readable - like data tables
- 15:21:21 [wendy]
- not a recommended technique, but a "legacy technique"
- 15:22:28 [wendy]
- 2nd technique for older screen readers that read across columns?
- 15:27:01 [wendy]
- 2 techniques: 1. reading order (take care to make sure reading order is logical) 2. legacy technique for producing alternative linear version
- 15:27:17 [wendy]
- action wac: add 2 new table techniques as part of above "table" action item
- 15:28:01 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:28:09 [wendy]
- next week: start w/table layout
- 15:28:18 [wendy]
- 3 hour call
- 15:28:41 [wendy]
- also gateway techniques
- 15:29:17 [wendy]
- decided last week to do 3 hour calls on 6 and 20. also want to do 3 hours on 13 and 27?
- 15:30:04 [wendy]
- yes. let's keep up the progress
- 15:30:25 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:30:28 [Zakim]
- -Ben
- 15:30:29 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 15:30:32 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 15:30:33 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:30:35 [wendy]
- zakim, bey
- 15:30:35 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'bey', wendy
- 15:30:38 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 15:30:38 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 15:31:03 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, actions?
- 15:31:03 [wendy]
- I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'actions'
- 15:31:13 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, action items?
- 15:31:13 [wendy]
- I'm logging. Sorry, nothing found for 'action items'
- 15:31:18 [wendy]
- actions?
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- sees 5 open action items:
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac check with people possibilities for toronto tech tas force f2f on 8 sept (roberto, loretta - since have been active in wednesday calls) [1]
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-24
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac proposals for list techniques [2]
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-01
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: chris continue proposals on tables (contents of caption and summary) [3]
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-52-33
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac clean-up table section, incorporate chris' proposals [4]
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-15-49
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wac to add 2 new table techniques as part of above "table" action item [5]
- 15:31:18 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/07/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-17
- 16:03:39 [jeff]
- jeff has joined #wai-wcag
- 16:03:42 [jeff]
- hello.
- 16:06:29 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
- 16:11:18 [jeff]
- zakim, who is here?
- 16:32:01 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, stop logging