IRC log of webont on 2003-06-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:46:50 [RRSAgent]
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- 15:46:54 [Zakim]
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- 15:46:58 [DanC]
- Zakim, this will be webo
- 15:46:58 [Zakim]
- ok, DanC; I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
- 15:47:10 [sandro]
- sandro has joined #webont
- 15:48:15 [DanC]
- agenda + 26Jun http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0350.html
- 15:48:50 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: 26 Jun http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ chair: JimH/DanC; scribe: ???
- 15:50:26 [baget]
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- 15:52:15 [sandro]
- I think Jim is chairing.
- 15:53:04 [sandro]
- week, but might come late - I'm stuck at a DARPA meeting in the AM.
- 15:53:04 [sandro]
- Can you convene the meeting and, if I'm not there on time, start the
- 15:53:04 [sandro]
- action review? I'm also probably going to have to cell phone in, so
- 15:53:04 [sandro]
- probably won't have access
- 15:53:04 [sandro]
- (in fact, if one of you is willing to consider chairing, I wouldn't
- 15:53:06 [sandro]
- complain, but I will also understand if you prefer not to)
- 15:53:17 [sandro]
- oops. not supposed to go to channel.
- 15:57:12 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
- 15:57:18 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 15:57:32 [mdean]
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- 15:57:48 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 15:59:03 [Zakim]
- +??P5
- 16:00:09 [DanC]
- partial regrets from Marwan
- 16:00:25 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Finin
- 16:00:34 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 16:00:36 [Zakim]
- +??P10
- 16:00:54 [Zakim]
- +[EDS]
- 16:01:13 [Zakim]
- +Evan_Wallace
- 16:01:18 [Zakim]
- +Mike_Dean
- 16:01:27 [Zakim]
- +Sandro
- 16:01:47 [Zakim]
- +??P18
- 16:02:31 [Zakim]
- -JeromeE
- 16:03:00 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 16:03:08 [jjc]
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- 16:03:08 [ChrisW]
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- 16:04:59 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 16:05:04 [ChrisW]
- hi
- 16:05:17 [Zakim]
- Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose MikeS
- 16:05:57 [ChrisW]
- zakim, [IBM] is ChrisW
- 16:05:57 [Zakim]
- +ChrisW; got it
- 16:06:23 [ChrisW]
- agenda at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0350.html
- 16:06:48 [ChrisW]
- Approved: 12 June minutes
- 16:07:03 [ChrisW]
- Approved: 19 June minutes
- 16:07:05 [Zakim]
- +Deb_Mcguinness
- 16:07:18 [Zakim]
- +??P21
- 16:08:27 [DanC]
- RESOLVED: to meet again 3July, hendler to chair, carroll to scribe.
- 16:08:31 [Zakim]
- +??P22
- 16:08:43 [DeborahMc]
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- 16:08:46 [ChrisW]
- action review
- 16:10:32 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: Jim Hendler. Send response.
- 16:10:36 [ChrisW]
- continued
- 16:10:58 [ChrisW]
- CONTINUED: Jeremy Carroll. Generate test case.
- 16:13:27 [DanC]
- Zakim, who's talking?
- 16:13:38 [Zakim]
- DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Sandro (38%), JimH (64%), DanC (60%)
- 16:14:46 [Zakim]
- +??P26
- 16:14:49 [Zakim]
- + +1.705.756.aaaa
- 16:16:24 [Zakim]
- +??P27
- 16:16:35 [Zakim]
- -HermanT
- 16:17:02 [JosD]
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- 16:17:31 [Zakim]
- +HermanT
- 16:18:19 [ChrisW]
- I'm muted - will speak up when I fall behind
- 16:20:08 [Zakim]
- -JimH
- 16:20:32 [ChrisW]
- Ian discusses paper by Group at U. Roma La Sapienza
- 16:20:38 [Zakim]
- +??P21
- 16:24:37 [ChrisW]
- Agenda Item 3 - Sameas
- 16:24:59 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0345.html
- 16:26:26 [ChrisW]
- resolved by consensus to accept Guus' proposal
- 16:26:33 [ChrisW]
- ACTION all editors to update
- 16:26:33 [DanC]
- ack ChrisW
- 16:26:57 [ChrisW]
- abstain JeromeE
- 16:27:29 [ChrisW]
- Agenda Item 4 - Compound Keys
- 16:28:16 [ChrisW]
- proposal to open and postpone the issue
- 16:28:39 [guus]
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- 16:29:14 [Zakim]
- +??P28
- 16:29:29 [ChrisW]
- Jeremy summarizes - OWL lacks the ability to express keys of more than one attribute
- 16:29:39 [ChrisW]
- technical work still in progress
- 16:30:09 [ChrisW]
- Ian - may be possible - not necessarily a design flaw in OWL
- 16:30:37 [sandro]
- "It is very common in database systems to have primary keys composed of multiple fields, and in OWL, using InverseFunctionalProperties it is possible to do something similar with one field, but ..."
- 16:32:16 [ChrisW]
- ACTION Jim write up an issue description
- 16:32:26 [ChrisW]
- Sentiment of group in favor
- 16:32:41 [ChrisW]
- (of opening and postponing)
- 16:33:03 [ChrisW]
- Agenda Item 5.0 Dave Beckett's response
- 16:33:31 [ChrisW]
- Beckett not satisfied with response in
- 16:33:31 [ChrisW]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webont-comments/2003Jun/0068.html
- 16:34:35 [ChrisW]
- possibly send "what Sean wrote" (on RDF to OWL)
- 16:36:38 [DanC]
- ack danc
- 16:36:38 [Zakim]
- DanC, you wanted to recall 3rd option... add beckett to dissenters
- 16:36:57 [DanC]
- ack jimh
- 16:37:43 [ChrisW]
- jim - are our syntax checkers sufficient for this?
- 16:38:50 [ChrisW]
- jjc - tools do not conform to abstract syntax at this time
- 16:38:55 [ChrisW]
- did I get that right?
- 16:39:29 [ChrisW]
- mikes - why translate from RDF triple to OWL abstract syntax
- 16:39:37 [ChrisW]
- danc - not a requirement
- 16:40:10 [DanC]
- I tried to say this reverse transformation is pretty closely related to the entailment testing tast
- 16:40:11 [DanC]
- task
- 16:40:36 [ChrisW]
- seanb - to do the reasoning youhave to understand the translation
- 16:41:54 [ChrisW]
- danc - do we have implementors who have implemented the entire spec, as opposed to just satisfying the tests
- 16:44:03 [ChrisW]
- danc - reverse mapping not required - just getting the "Right answers"
- 16:45:33 [ChrisW]
- jeff - semantics document uses abstract syntax, but documents talk about concrete syntax, and people need to do that mapping in their head
- 16:46:01 [ChrisW]
- jimh - are people willing to evaluate Sean's document to make it (more) official
- 16:46:41 [ChrisW]
- action JeffH report back to the WG on whether SeanBs document contributes to the issue
- 16:47:19 [ChrisW]
- ACTION JeffH report back to the WG on whether SeanBs document contributes to the issue
- 16:47:48 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: JeffH report back to the WG on whether SeanBs document contributes to the issue
- 16:47:51 [Zakim]
- -MarwanS
- 16:48:04 [ChrisW]
- Agenda Item 6.0 Test LC Update
- 16:48:18 [ChrisW]
- jjc - semantic layering
- 16:48:43 [ChrisW]
- DL and Full consistency are not the same according to PFPS
- 16:49:19 [ChrisW]
- Tests that make that assumption maybe need to be rewritten
- 16:49:28 [Zakim]
- -JeffH
- 16:50:22 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Finin
- 16:51:37 [ChrisW]
- danc document is different from WG decision
- 16:52:34 [ChrisW]
- jos - we get an inconsistency
- 16:55:05 [jjc]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0295
- 16:55:14 [jjc]
- annotation property example
- 16:55:46 [jjc]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0257
- 16:55:58 [jjc]
- empty universe example
- 16:57:12 [ChrisW]
- jim - is this just for annotation properties?
- 16:57:31 [ChrisW]
- jjc - one is. The empty universe has to do with finite universes
- 16:59:32 [ChrisW]
- jim - reopen issue
- 17:00:30 [ChrisW]
- jjc - some work on test document required to fix
- 17:02:31 [sandro]
- owl:Thing owl:oneOf rdf:nil contradiction in owl full, but not in DL, because it can have the empty universe.
- 17:02:36 [sandro]
- (from jjc)
- 17:03:13 [ChrisW]
- owl:Thing owl:oneOf rdf:nil .
- 17:03:26 [ChrisW]
- is a contradiction in OWL Full but not in OWL DL
- 17:03:32 [sandro]
- pfps: it is in the syntax
- 17:04:07 [sandro]
- jjc: or owl:Thing owl:EquivalentClass owl:Nothing
- 17:04:40 [sandro]
- jjc: and owl:Thing must have instances in owl full, since it has itself.
- 17:05:14 [sandro]
- ih: there are several nasty examples with finite universes
- 17:05:36 [sandro]
- pfps: the whole idea of owl full was to pump up the universe, so you dont need to worry about typing.
- 17:08:18 [ChrisW]
- jimh - just subtype OWL:Thing from RDF:Resource
- 17:08:31 [ChrisW]
- not clear that would do it.
- 17:10:31 [sandro]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:10:31 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see someplace, DanC, JeromeEuz, MikeS, Evan_Wallace, Mike_Dean, Sandro (muted), JeremyC, ChrisW, Deb_Mcguinness, TimFinin, PFPS, CharlesW, JosD, HermanT, ??P21,
- 17:10:34 [Zakim]
- ... GuusS, Tim_Finin
- 17:10:35 [Zakim]
- someplace has SeanB, IanH
- 17:10:36 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see guus, JosD, DeborahMc, ChrisW, jjc, mdean, baget, sandro, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger
- 17:11:30 [ChrisW]
- jimh - if we could describe this in one paragraph (as a caveat) then OK to close
- 17:14:49 [ChrisW]
- jimh - need an owner for this issue. Volunteers?
- 17:14:54 [ChrisW]
- ...silence...
- 17:16:41 [sandro]
- pfps on the road for the next two weeks
- 17:17:40 [sandro]
- pfps: I don't think I beleive the if-and-only-if statement
- 17:18:49 [sandro]
- ih: weaken it to "if" and we might be okay
- 17:19:17 [jjc]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jun/0265
- 17:19:19 [sandro]
- ih: if it's entailed in DL it's entailed in Full, but not necessarily the other way around.
- 17:19:27 [jjc]
- peter's msg with the one-way entailment
- 17:21:34 [sandro]
- from Guide: every valid DL conclusion is a valid Full conclusion. PFPS: that's correct.
- 17:23:04 [sandro]
- pfps: If it's owl full consistent, it's owl dl consistent.
- 17:25:10 [ChrisW]
- zakim, ??P21 is JimH
- 17:25:10 [Zakim]
- +JimH; got it
- 17:25:17 [ChrisW]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:25:17 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see someplace, DanC, JeromeEuz, MikeS, Evan_Wallace, Mike_Dean, Sandro (muted), JeremyC, ChrisW, Deb_Mcguinness, TimFinin, PFPS, CharlesW, JosD, HermanT, JimH,
- 17:25:20 [Zakim]
- ... GuusS, Tim_Finin
- 17:25:21 [Zakim]
- someplace has SeanB, IanH
- 17:25:22 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see guus, JosD, DeborahMc, ChrisW, jjc, mdean, baget, sandro, Zakim, RRSAgent, DanC, logger
- 17:27:05 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: JJC summarize impact on test
- 17:28:14 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: IanH notify FrankVH
- 17:28:28 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: DanC to contact PatH and W3C colleagues
- 17:29:09 [sandro]
- Next meeting: July 3rd, Hender chair, Carroll scribe.
- 17:29:16 [Zakim]
- -Evan_Wallace
- 17:29:18 [Zakim]
- -MikeS
- 17:29:19 [Zakim]
- -PFPS
- 17:29:20 [Zakim]
- -CharlesW
- 17:29:21 [Zakim]
- -HermanT
- 17:29:21 [Zakim]
- -JeremyC
- 17:29:22 [ChrisW]
- adjourned
- 17:29:22 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Finin
- 17:29:23 [Zakim]
- -someplace
- 17:29:24 [Zakim]
- -Mike_Dean
- 17:29:25 [Zakim]
- -JeromeEuz
- 17:29:27 [Zakim]
- -TimFinin
- 17:29:29 [Zakim]
- -Sandro
- 17:29:31 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 17:29:33 [Zakim]
- -Deb_Mcguinness
- 17:29:36 [Zakim]
- -JimH
- 17:29:37 [Zakim]
- -JosD
- 17:29:39 [Zakim]
- -GuusS
- 17:29:42 [Zakim]
- -ChrisW
- 17:29:43 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
- 17:29:48 [DanC]
- well, I neglected to get the action assigned, but yes, I expect Mike S to note the issue is reopened.
- 17:34:20 [ChrisW]
- ACTION: MikeS to update issues list with "semantic layering" reopened
- 17:43:55 [DeborahMc]
- DeborahMc has left #webont
- 18:05:07 [sandro]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 18:05:07 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2003/06/26-webont-irc#T18-05-07
- 19:51:15 [Zakim]
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- 21:22:04 [DanC]
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