16:54:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webont
16:54:19 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webont
16:54:56 <DanC> Zakim, this will be WEBO
16:54:58 <Zakim> ok, DanC
16:55:53 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 13Feb http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/ chair: DanC/Guus; scribe: Heflin
16:58:07 <DanC> hmm... were the 30Jan minutes approved?
16:58:28 <heflin> heflin has joined #webont
16:58:43 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
16:58:52 <Zakim> +NickG
16:59:04 <heflin> Hi Dan.
16:59:14 <Zakim> +DanC
16:59:39 <Zakim> -DanC
16:59:49 <Zakim> +??P15
16:59:59 <Zakim> +Tim_Finin
17:00:01 <Zakim> +DanC
17:00:02 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
17:00:32 <Zakim> +??P32
17:00:38 <Zakim> +??P33
17:00:40 <Zakim> +Mike_Ballantyne
17:00:53 <Zakim> +[IBM]
17:00:54 <ChrisW> that's me
17:01:09 <pfps> pfps has joined #webont
17:01:21 <ChrisW> zakim, IBM is temporarily ChrisW
17:01:22 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisW, I do not recognize a party named 'IBM'
17:01:31 <Zakim> -Mike_Ballantyne
17:01:39 <Zakim> +Marwan_Sabbouh
17:01:41 <DanC> zakim, [IBM] is temporarily ChrisW
17:01:42 <Zakim> +ChrisW; got it
17:01:43 <Zakim> +??P39
17:01:48 <Zakim> +??P34
17:01:49 <ChrisW> tnx
17:02:14 <IanH> IanH has joined #webont
17:02:17 <ChrisW> i can do it
17:02:28 <Zakim> +PatH
17:02:32 <Zakim> +M_Smith
17:02:35 <baget> baget has joined #webont
17:02:43 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
17:03:02 <pfps> zakim, tim_finin is jeffHeflin
17:03:03 <Zakim> +JeffHeflin; got it
17:03:24 <Zakim> +??P45
17:03:48 <pfps> zakim, ??P45 is DeborahMcG
17:03:50 <Zakim> +DeborahMcG; got it
17:03:58 <pfps> zakim, ??P32 is IanH
17:04:00 <Zakim> +IanH; got it
17:04:12 <pfps> zakim, ??P33 is LeoObrst
17:04:13 <Zakim> +LeoObrst; got it
17:04:31 <DeborahMc> DeborahMc has joined #webont
17:04:33 <pfps> zakim, ??P33 is Baget
17:04:34 <Zakim> sorry, pfps, I do not recognize a party named '??P33'
17:04:53 <pfps> zakim, ??P34 is Baget
17:04:55 <Zakim> +Baget; got it
17:05:00 <DanC> partial regrets from philips
17:05:05 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:05:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickG, DanC, PeterFPS, JeffHeflin, IanH, LeoObrst, ChrisW, Marwan_Sabbouh, ??P39, Baget, PatH, M_Smith, Evan_Wallace, DeborahMcG
17:05:16 <nmg> nmg has joined #webont
17:06:00 <Zakim> + +1.858.565.aaaa
17:06:08 <pfps> zakim, ??P39 is Yassar
17:06:09 <Zakim> +Yassar; got it
17:06:17 <pfps> zakim, aaaa is MikeDean
17:06:18 <Zakim> +MikeDean; got it
17:06:20 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
17:06:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickG, DanC, PeterFPS, JeffHeflin, IanH, LeoObrst, ChrisW, Marwan_Sabbouh, Yassar, Baget, PatH, M_Smith, Evan_Wallace, DeborahMcG, MikeDean
17:06:37 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Feb/0184.html
17:07:09 <DanC> PROPOSED 6feb record http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Feb/0126.html
17:07:38 <heflin> POSTPONED: approval of minutes
17:07:44 <DanC> 1.3 Agenda Amendments
17:07:46 <mdean> mdean has joined #webont
17:07:50 <DanC> 1.4 Telecon Schedule
17:08:04 <DanC> Next telecon: February 20
17:08:09 <heflin> RESOLVED
17:08:38 <heflin> Scribe will be: Leo Obrst
17:08:43 <ChrisW> minutes look OK to me
17:09:02 <DanC> 1.5  Tech plenary
17:09:11 <heflin> Minutes of 6 Feb approved
17:09:44 <heflin> Deb request speaker phone for editor's meeting at tech plenary
17:10:04 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/meetings/tech-200303/
17:10:37 <DanC> 2. STATUS RDFCore LC REVIEWS (15-20 min.)
17:12:09 <guus> guus has joined #webont
17:12:45 <Zakim> +??P10
17:13:07 <DanC> Zakim, ??P10 is ZivH
17:13:08 <Zakim> +ZivH; got it
17:13:08 <Zakim> +??P14
17:13:58 <guus> zakim, ??p14
17:14:00 <Zakim> I don't understand '??p14', guus
17:14:15 <guus> zakim, ??p14 is Guus
17:14:16 <Zakim> +Guus; got it
17:15:30 <Zakim> +??P25
17:15:43 <pfps> zakim, ??P25 is Jeremy
17:15:45 <Zakim> +Jeremy; got it
17:17:21 <jjc> jjc has joined #webont
17:18:11 <jjc> Zakim, who's on the call?
17:18:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see NickG, DanC, PeterFPS, JeffHeflin, IanH, LeoObrst, ChrisW, Marwan_Sabbouh, Yassar, Baget, PatH, M_Smith, Evan_Wallace, DeborahMcG, MikeDean, ZivH, Guus, Jeremy
17:18:14 <Zakim> ... (muted)
17:22:03 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
17:22:32 <heflin> Dan - WebOnt should report to RDF that "social meaning" section
17:22:45 <heflin> causes problems for some in the WG
17:22:54 <heflin> Wording should be clarified
17:23:47 <heflin> ??? - change normative parts to "non-normative"
17:25:38 <heflin> ACTION: Guus will do summary review of RDF docs
17:25:52 <heflin> 2.3 RDF Concepts Review
17:26:50 <heflin> Only issue was social meaning, as discussed under 2.1
17:27:26 <heflin> Asserted vs. non-asserted forms of meaning is problematic
17:28:41 <JosD> JosD has joined #webont
17:29:27 <Zakim> +??P48
17:29:35 <Zakim> -Baget
17:29:55 <JosD> Zakim, ??P48 is JosD
17:29:56 <Zakim> +JosD; got it
17:37:07 <DanC> order? this is a matter of words, and we're not likely to get any useful words into our meeting record. And we've exhausted our scheduled time on item 2
17:39:24 <DanC> baget's review of concepts, plus a couple other messages http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2003Feb/0056.html
17:40:04 <heflin> Jeremy: Request to consider social meaning at tech plenary
17:41:39 <heflin> 3 ISSUETTES
17:41:51 <heflin> 3.1 Annotations
17:41:53 <jjc> ACTION: jjc Send msg to RDFCore and WebOnt to get position statement on social meaning prior to Boston
17:42:03 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
17:42:10 <DanC> (hmm... to www-rdf-interest too, jeremy?)
17:42:37 <DanC> proposals on annotations and imports http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Feb/0128.html
17:44:06 <heflin> Peter: annotations should be 2nd class citizens, not facts
17:44:17 <DanC> yes, annotations are facts. that appeals to me.
17:45:11 <Zakim> +LynnT
17:47:05 <heflin> Dan: What breaks if annotations are facts?
17:47:10 <jjc> q+
17:48:07 <heflin> Ian: Wants to express things that don't affect semantics
17:49:24 <heflin> Jeremy: Unrestricted use of annotations may allow metaclasses
17:49:44 <heflin> in OWL-Lite/OWL-DL (which we decided previously are not allowed)
17:53:30 <DanC> All entailment tests of the form P=>P *must* be positive, IMO.
17:53:51 <heflin> Jeremy: could embed XML comment in RDFS comment (as an XML literal)
17:55:44 <heflin> Pat: RDFS comments have no meaning; they have no entailments other than themselves
17:58:01 <DanC> 1st example in "Annotations and non-mon example" of 30Jan is unacceptable to me; is it in the test suite yet? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jan/0542.html
17:58:53 <jjc> Zakim, who's talking?
17:59:04 <Zakim> jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jeremy (9%), JosD (15%)
18:02:02 <heflin> Jeremy: Would like a way to indicate that a property is an AnnotationProperty
18:04:54 <heflin> PROPOSAL: to adopt Peter's Proposal #2 (from Feb #0128)
18:05:06 <Zakim> +??P2
18:05:30 <DanC> jjc, pls add that 0542 case to the test suite, ok? (I suppose I could, but can I play the busted finger card?)
18:05:37 <heflin> AMMEND: add AnnototationProperty
18:06:11 <heflin> ABSTAIN: Ian, Jos DeRoo, Mike Dean, Mike Smith
18:06:14 <DanC> I concur (esp w jjc ;-)
18:06:21 <ChrisW> I have to go...bye
18:06:29 <heflin> ABSTAIN: Johnathan
18:06:47 <heflin> ACTION: JJC to add 0542 case to test suite
18:06:57 <Zakim> -ChrisW
18:08:31 <heflin> RESOLVED: Accept above proposal and ammendment
18:09:23 <DanC> ACTION Schreiber: explain AnnototationProperty in ref
18:09:50 <heflin> Pat: rdfs:comment, label, seeAlso, isDefinedBy should all be AnnotationProperty
18:10:05 <heflin> Guus: can change owl.owl to include this
18:10:08 <DanC> ACTION Schreiber: specify in owl.owl that  label, seeAlso, isDefinedBy are AnnotationProperty
18:11:08 <heflin> ACTION: Mike will update guide to discuss annotations
18:11:10 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
18:12:48 <DanC> == 3.2 Imports and entailments
18:13:07 <DanC> proposal (3?) in pfps 10Feb http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Feb/0128.html
18:19:23 <heflin> ACTION: Ian to get Sean to generate syntax checker test case for imports (on failure assume doc is OWL-FULL)
18:20:17 <heflin> ACTION Jos: send negative experience on imports to list
18:20:41 <DanC> == 3.3 rdf:XMLLiteral, xml:lang in OWL Lite
18:20:42 <heflin> == 3.3 XMLLiteral
18:21:38 <DanC> at the risk of sounding like a broken record, is there an example/test case I can look at?
18:21:51 <ChrisW> ChrisW has joined #webont
18:23:43 <nmg> nmg has joined #webont
18:26:51 <jjc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2003Jan/0533.html
18:26:53 <Zakim> -Yassar
18:30:14 <heflin> Peter: Adding XML literals require a theory of equality
18:33:13 <Zakim> -Marwan_Sabbouh
18:37:59 <heflin> Jeremy: Could go with an RDF solution that doesn't work for XSLT but does work for OWL
18:42:20 <heflin> Dan: Use case for XML literals and cardinality constraints: A product has XML descriptions in different files, but can only have one description. Are the two files consistent?
18:50:42 <pfps> proposal - abstract syntax uses same syntax as RDF for literals
18:51:19 <DanC> Connolly abstains
18:51:41 <guus> zakim, who is talking
18:51:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is talking', guus
18:51:47 <jjc> Zakim, who's talking?
18:51:47 <DanC> on the basis that I can't endorse the XMLLiteral design. 1/2 ;-)
18:52:00 <Zakim> jjc, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (8%), Jeremy (17%), JosD (9%)
18:52:19 <heflin> RESOLVED:  abstract syntax uses same syntax as RDF for literals
18:53:47 <heflin> ACTION Jeremy: to produce test case for XML literal
18:55:17 <heflin> 4. DOCUMENT STATUS
18:56:26 <Zakim> -ZivH
18:56:28 <heflin> PROPOSED: Rename AS&S to S&AS
18:56:29 <heflin> (Semantics & 
18:56:29 <heflin> Abstract Syntax).
18:56:55 <heflin> abstains: Pat
18:57:17 <heflin> ACTION: Massimo publish reference (continued)
18:57:50 <heflin> ACTION: Connolly get Tests published
18:59:52 <heflin> ACTION: Jeremy make Test updates by Monday
19:00:23 <Zakim> -LeoObrst
19:00:26 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
19:00:30 <Zakim> -M_Smith
19:00:32 <Zakim> -LynnT
19:00:36 <Zakim> -JosD
19:00:37 <Zakim> -NickG
19:00:40 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
19:00:41 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2003/02/13-webont-irc#T19-00-40
19:00:41 <Zakim> -Jeremy
19:00:41 <Zakim> -IanH
19:00:44 <Zakim> -PeterFPS
19:00:45 <Zakim> -PatH
19:00:48 <Zakim> -??P2
19:00:50 <Zakim> -MikeDean
19:02:07 <baget> what happened?
19:02:50 <Zakim> -DeborahMcG
19:02:50 <baget> phone stopped, and trying to call back I had az message "conferebce restricted at this time"
19:03:06 <DanC> we're adjouned
19:03:49 <baget> bye
19:04:08 <Zakim> -JeffHeflin
19:04:19 <heflin> Zakim, actions?
19:04:20 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, heflin.
19:04:29 <heflin> Zakim, list actions?
19:04:30 <Zakim> I see SW_WebOnt()12:00PM
19:12:13 <Zakim> -Guus
19:12:24 <Zakim> -DanC
19:12:25 <Zakim> SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
19:35:54 <heflin> heflin has left #webont
19:56:32 <jjc> x
20:15:30 <DanC> DanC has left #webont
21:29:58 <Zakim> Zakim has left #webont