IRC log of webont on 2002-03-21
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 16:17:38 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #webont
- 16:17:43 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 16:17:43 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2002/03/21-webont-irc#T16-17-43
- 16:18:00 [Massimo]
- :)
- 16:18:32 [DanC]
- you can go ahead and dial in, I guess.
- 16:18:43 [DanC]
- Zakim, what's the passcode?
- 16:18:44 [Zakim]
- sorry, DanC, I don't know what conference this is
- 16:19:03 [DanC]
- Zakim, it's in the agenda.
- 16:19:04 [Zakim]
- sorry, DanC, I do not recognize a party named 'the agenda.'
- 16:19:14 [Massimo]
- lol
- 16:19:26 [Massimo]
- wouldn't it be cool ?
- 16:19:38 [Massimo]
- actually, had we all this in XML....
- 16:19:42 [Massimo]
- :!
- 16:19:48 [DanC]
- how's metalog coming, by now? surely it groks all natural language by now, no?
- 16:19:49 [DanC]
- ;-)
- 16:20:03 [Massimo]
- double-lol ;)
- 16:20:13 [Massimo]
- actually, metalog is starting to live again
- 16:20:30 [Massimo]
- I'm taking back the material, and have got a couple of students to bring along the code
- 16:20:33 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: ?; scribe: Decker
- 16:20:51 [Massimo]
- there's already some loose prototype of the natural language -> RDF part
- 16:21:00 [Massimo]
- sort of "flavored N3" I guess ;)
- 16:21:09 [DaveB]
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- 16:21:29 [DaveB]
- oops, logger_1 got ops
- 16:21:47 [DaveB]
- just checking on logger_1 new irc channel, port
- 16:22:04 [DaveB]
- yeah, working
- 16:22:11 [DaveB]
- bye
- 16:22:12 [DaveB]
- DaveB has left #webont
- 16:22:17 [Massimo]
- getting on it now....
- 16:22:34 [Massimo]
- I assume usual passcode
- 16:22:55 [Massimo]
- (usual = 9326)
- 16:23:11 [DanC]
- having any luck? I'm losing.
- 16:23:22 [Massimo]
- I'm behind you... ;)
- 16:24:11 [Massimo]
- mmm, couldn't it be because , cf http://www.w3.org/1998/12/bridge/Zakim.html
- 16:24:17 [Massimo]
- the bridge is full?
- 16:24:32 [Massimo]
- (or overheating? ;)
- 16:24:53 [DanC]
- or maybe our reservation doesn't work until T-10min; I think I heard that recently.
- 16:25:01 [Massimo]
- yes, I think so
- 16:25:19 [Massimo]
- is there a way to create one on the fly?
- 16:25:33 [Massimo]
- aka Zakim, please create teleconf bla, passcode bla2
- 16:25:34 [Massimo]
- ?
- 16:52:49 [jonb]
- jonb has joined #webont
- 16:56:08 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has now started
- 16:56:15 [Zakim]
- +Marwan.Sabbouh
- 16:57:04 [Zakim]
- + +1.781.899.aaaa
- 16:58:40 [DanC]
- Zakim, +1.781.899.aaaa is JonB
- 16:58:41 [Zakim]
- +JonB; got it
- 16:58:53 [Zakim]
- +Evan.Wallace
- 16:59:08 [Zakim]
- + +44.196.266.aabb
- 16:59:35 [Zakim]
- +??P27
- 16:59:42 [Zakim]
- +JHendler
- 16:59:46 [Zakim]
- +??P30
- 17:00:00 [Zakim]
- +??P36
- 17:00:05 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 17:00:19 [jhendler]
- jhendler has joined #webont
- 17:00:33 [jhendler]
- jhendler has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: Hendler; scribe: Decker
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- 17:00:47 [libby__]
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- 17:00:50 [Zakim]
- +Massimo
- 17:00:51 [Zakim]
- +??P38
- 17:00:52 [Zakim]
- +MDean
- 17:00:59 [ora]
- ora has joined #webont
- 17:01:01 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 17:01:02 [Zakim]
- +SDecker
- 17:01:06 [Zakim]
- -JHendler
- 17:01:07 [Zakim]
- +??P35
- 17:01:14 [Zakim]
- +M.Smith
- 17:01:16 [pfps]
- pfps has joined #webont
- 17:01:25 [Zakim]
- +JHendler
- 17:01:27 [Zakim]
- +DanC
- 17:01:35 [Zakim]
- +??P43
- 17:01:47 [jhendler]
- zakim, who is here
- 17:01:48 [Zakim]
- jhendler, you need to end that query with '?'
- 17:01:49 [Zakim]
- + +1.540.364.aacc
- 17:01:50 [nmg]
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- 17:01:52 [jhendler]
- zakim, who is here?
- 17:01:53 [Zakim]
- I see Marwan.Sabbouh, JonB, Evan.Wallace, +44.196.266.aabb, ??P27, ??P30, DanC, ??P36, Massimo, ??P38, MDean, SDecker, ??P35, M.Smith, JHendler, ??P43, +1.540.364.aacc
- 17:01:53 [Zakim]
- +Lassila
- 17:02:16 [Zakim]
- +??P14
- 17:02:24 [Zakim]
- -??P27
- 17:02:48 [libby__]
- I think might have been me...
- 17:02:57 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 17:03:01 [libby__]
- will some one tell amy?
- 17:03:14 [libby__]
- (the echo that is - pressed wrong button!
- 17:03:25 [Zakim]
- +??P6
- 17:03:33 [Zakim]
- +??P19
- 17:03:46 [DanC]
- any volunteers to scribe?
- 17:04:17 [DanC]
- not everyone at once, ok?
- 17:04:32 [Zakim]
- +??P27
- 17:04:55 [DanC]
- DanC has changed the topic to: WebOnt 21Mar: chair: Hendler; scribe: DanC
- 17:05:01 [DanC]
- agenda?
- 17:05:07 [Zakim]
- -SDecker
- 17:05:11 [DanC]
- ACTION Stefan: get well.
- 17:05:40 [Zakim]
- +??P39
- 17:06:30 [frankh]
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- 17:07:13 [Zakim]
- +??P41
- 17:09:19 [DanC]
- (roll taken separately; will send)
- 17:09:45 [DanC]
- === - action item review
- 17:09:55 [DanC]
- DONE: (March 21): Frank van Harmelen: initial proposal for frame part of ...
- 17:10:06 [DanC]
- re Peter Patel-Schneider to develop list of conditions on
- 17:10:06 [DanC]
- semantics of the language (in a cohesive form.). Input requested from
- 17:10:06 [DanC]
- anyone.
- 17:10:10 [DanC]
- DONE. (pointer, pls?)
- 17:10:21 [DanC]
- ACTION: Pat Hayes will do the same. CONTINUES.
- 17:10:37 [DanC]
- ACTION (Mar 14) Guus Schreiber: turn CM examples into tests CONTINUES.
- 17:10:49 [DanC]
- ACTION (Mar 14) John Stanton: report back on different kinds of tests (very
- 17:10:49 [DanC]
- short)
- 17:10:49 [DanC]
- OPEN.
- 17:10:53 [DanC]
- CONTINUES.
- 17:11:14 [pfps]
- My message on the action item was 0173.html
- 17:11:38 [DanC]
- ACTION Finin: report test results. CONTINUES.
- 17:11:58 [DanC]
- SEM DESIDERATA: my initial desiderata list http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Mar/0173.html
- 17:12:16 [DanC]
- ====== ftf
- 17:12:29 [DanC]
- frankh: all but about 4 have registered/sent regrets
- 17:12:41 [DanC]
- 25 registered to participate
- 17:12:45 [JosD]
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- 17:13:10 [DanC]
- DanC: offers regrets
- 17:13:17 [DanC]
- Massimo covering.
- 17:14:01 [Zakim]
- +??P12
- 17:14:12 [DanC]
- JimH: ftf agenda due two weeks in advance, i.e. this monday. Guus/DanC/Massimo and I plan to meet monday.
- 17:14:29 [DanC]
- Zakim, ??P12 is IanH
- 17:14:30 [Zakim]
- +IanH; got it
- 17:14:37 [IanH]
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- 17:14:40 [DanC]
- registrants: http://www.cwi.nl/htbin/buro/W3Clijst
- 17:15:26 [DanC]
- JimH: I'd like to have each focus area give a status update
- 17:16:29 [DanC]
- no particular volunteers from GUIDE at this point;
- 17:16:34 [Zakim]
- +??P44
- 17:16:36 [DanC]
- volunteers should contact the chairs by Monday.
- 17:16:51 [DanC]
- Zakim, ??P44 is Enrico
- 17:16:52 [Zakim]
- +Enrico; got it
- 17:16:52 [IanH]
- Whoever is scribing: Ian Horrocks joined late
- 17:17:26 [DanC]
- frankh: yes, I can present/lead discussion for ~20 min on LANG
- 17:17:50 [DanC]
- JimH: I think Jeremy can do TEST; I'll confirm
- 17:18:00 [DanC]
- PeterPS: yes, I can do something for SEM
- 17:18:51 [DanC]
- JimH: we expect to have focus group break-outs [did I get that right?]
- 17:19:15 [DanC]
- ... as well as group discussion of each area.
- 17:19:27 [DanC]
- i.e. all-WG discussion of each area.
- 17:20:29 [DanC]
- JimH: I'm trying to figure out if we should expect to decide the layering issues at this ftf.
- 17:21:51 [DanC]
- JimH: are folks prepared to decide?
- 17:21:55 [DanC]
- [several]: no.
- 17:22:53 [DanC]
- Evan: if somebody from the "lots of stuff entailed" camp would explain what we lose by going with PatH's approach.
- 17:23:09 [DanC]
- ... where the queries introduce things [?]
- 17:23:14 [DanC]
- DanC: wans't that Jeremy?
- 17:23:32 [DanC]
- PeterPS: I don't know enough about Jeremy's approach to [...?]
- 17:25:43 [DanC]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-webont-wg/2002Jan/att-0061/01-swol.text
- 17:25:49 [DanC]
- The Web Ontology Language (OWL)
- 17:25:49 [DanC]
- RDF compatible
- 17:25:49 [DanC]
- Peter F. Patel-Schneider
- 17:25:49 [DanC]
- Bell Labs Research
- 17:25:49 [DanC]
- (4 January 2002)
- 17:27:23 [DanC]
- PeterPS: I'm willing to put together a collection of pointers to proposals.
- 17:28:00 [Enrico]
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- 17:28:11 [DanC]
- ^ citation above is an answer to Dan's question, to Peter, to pick his favorite proposal. Peter then wasn't sure that's his favorite proposal.
- 17:29:06 [frankh]
- request for the floor
- 17:29:55 [DanC]
- PeterPS: suppose I put a decision tree together, with the negative consequences I see in each case.
- 17:30:10 [Enrico]
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- 17:30:56 [DanC]
- frankh: I think the trouble is that the consequences aren't correlated to stuff folks understand and care about. [... more that I missed?]
- 17:31:44 [DanC]
- PeterPS: yes, there's some work to do in relating things like "you can't do a full reasoner" to use cases.
- 17:32:31 [JonB]
- q+
- 17:34:12 [DanC]
- JonB: I'm struggling a bit to understand some of the details, but if we're to do something that involves changing RDF, we'd better do that soon, no?
- 17:34:34 [DanC]
- JimH: yes, RDF Core is trying to go to last call [i.e. have all issues closed] by May.
- 17:35:47 [DanC]
- JimH: could you [Peter] lead a discussion at the ftf about relating the formal consequences to use cases?
- 17:36:23 [DanC]
- ACTION PeterPS: decision tree doc.
- 17:36:32 [DanC]
- [due when? ftf-7days?]
- 17:37:07 [pfps]
- initial version by the weekend, finalized by 8 April
- 17:37:15 [DanC]
- frankh: []
- 17:37:27 [jhendler]
- finalized by 1 April...
- 17:37:53 [pfps]
- right, I'm not thinking straight about dates
- 17:39:26 [Zakim]
- -??P19
- 17:39:50 [jhendler]
- JimH will cover --
- 17:40:07 [jhendler]
- Q: how does it compare (expressively) to D+O
- 17:40:24 [jhendler]
- Frank: overall complexity needed to be lower - we're trying to ad a graceful step in.
- 17:41:15 [libby__]
- DanC: can't evaluate unless concrete syntax
- 17:43:07 [DanC]
- JimH: recap: key things seem to be SEM/layering, LANG... not sure about TEST...
- 17:43:51 [DanC]
- DanC: I'd like to talk with folks with software...
- 17:43:59 [DanC]
- JimH: but do you need WG decisions re TEST?
- 17:44:06 [DanC]
- DanC: no, I don't suppose so.
- 17:45:48 [DanC]
- JimH: RDF Core has decided that parseType="daml:collection" [doesn't work].
- 17:46:27 [DanC]
- JimH: anybody in particular wanna be involved there? we're going to talk in the Semantic Web CG.
- 17:46:40 [DanC]
- if you haven't already sent mail expressing interest, please do so.
- 17:46:51 [DanC]
- ---
- 17:46:52 [DanC]
- http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/WebOnt/webont-issues.html
- 17:48:35 [DanC]
- JimH: can you maintain that as our "when we're done with these, we're done" list, Mike?
- 17:48:41 [DanC]
- Mike: yes, I expect so.
- 17:49:23 [DanC]
- ACTION Mike: notify the WG by 1Apr what version of the issues list to use.
- 17:49:44 [DanC]
- as Mike doesn't plan to be at the ftf, JonB offers to fill in as issues-maintainer there.
- 17:50:10 [DanC]
- ===== 3) LANG: Language proposal
- 17:50:28 [DanC]
- cf http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/
- 17:50:36 [DanC]
- http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/motivation.html
- 17:50:43 [DanC]
- http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/walkthrough.html
- 17:50:47 [DanC]
- http://www.cs.vu.nl/~frankh/spool/OWL-first-proposal/frame.html
- 17:53:47 [Zakim]
- +??P0
- 17:55:13 [DanC]
- DanC: if you take this simpler frame abstract syntax and render it in RDF concrete syntax, won't you get something as unattractive as DAML+OIL?
- 17:55:29 [DanC]
- frankh: [oops... missed it]
- 17:55:50 [DanC]
- IanH: [there would be more structure...?]
- 17:57:35 [DanC]
- [lots of discussion that isn't easy to capture...]
- 17:59:19 [DanC]
- Jos: is UnambigousProperty in there?
- 17:59:27 [DanC]
- frankh: yes, but with a different name...
- 18:00:11 [DanC]
- [something about "the stuff about ontologies" being missing, but it's not a proposal to get rid of it]
- 18:01:44 [JonB]
- The RDF syntax of the "Lite" vs. full language will look very similar
- 18:06:33 [DanC]
- [discussion of, e.g. required vs. minCardinality = 1 ... formally, same meaning. to people learning the language, quite different]
- 18:07:14 [DanC]
- Jeremy: a way this shows up in TEST/implementation/tools: when you read in "required", is it ok to spit out "minCardinality=1"? or do we need to be able to round-trip without losing the idioms?
- 18:07:22 [DanC]
- frankh: yes, that's a good way to put it.
- 18:09:13 [DanC]
- JimH: how about, for the 1 Apr ftf-prep deadline, an annotated version... where the annotations come from WG comments raising issues, proposing concrete syntax for parts, or whatever?
- 18:09:27 [DanC]
- ACTION FrankH: annotated version of lang proposal.
- 18:09:29 [DanC]
- by 1Apr
- 18:10:50 [DanC]
- frankh: I think the minCardinality=1 vs required is pretty essential to the proposal; that's the gist of it...
- 18:11:11 [DanC]
- Enrico: [agree... to some extent...?]
- 18:11:44 [JonB]
- q+
- 18:15:32 [jhendler]
- zakim ack JonB
- 18:18:36 [Zakim]
- -??P30
- 18:18:58 [DanC]
- Jeremy: the value of this proposal seems to be: that the frame idiom will be apparent, to the extent that it's interoperable between tools.
- 18:19:23 [Zakim]
- +??P1
- 18:21:07 [DanC]
- JimH: trying to summarize: one sense a simple first-face is as part of successive elaboration; i.e. here's the stuff you should learn first, follwed by less commonly-used stuff...
- 18:21:19 [DanC]
- ... vs. the identifyable subset stuff
- 18:22:33 [DanC]
- JimH: I hear discusson about cardinality in particular: 0/1/many vs others; other feature issues?
- 18:23:03 [DanC]
- DanC: the disjointness of R from V (in Peter's semantics for this language) seems unmotivated and awkward.
- 18:23:56 [DanC]
- Enrico: [something about Transitive/inverse/symmetric; didn't catch it, I don't think]
- 18:24:33 [DanC]
- Enrico: why does one more meta-property add complexity?
- 18:24:57 [DanC]
- Mike Dean: in particular, I'd like to see SymmetricProperty
- 18:26:31 [DanC]
- JimH: let's follow up in email...
- 18:27:02 [DanC]
- frankh: I've been busily taking notes, and I have some stuff to add to an annotated version now...
- 18:27:45 [DanC]
- Enrico: regarding primitive/defined class... the semantics I could live with, but the terminology is confusing.
- 18:28:12 [DanC]
- frankh: yes, I agree the terms are ugly, but we couldn't find a replacement.
- 18:28:37 [DanC]
- Enrico: rather than finding new terms, I think the destinction belongs in the class specification. [something about necessary/sufficient]
- 18:28:58 [DanC]
- JimH: pls send mail about that; it's time to close the meeting.
- 18:29:33 [DanC]
- ---- next meeting
- 18:29:41 [DanC]
- in one week, as usual.
- 18:29:43 [DanC]
- scribe: Stefan
- 18:29:53 [Zakim]
- -??P0
- 18:29:54 [Zakim]
- -M.Smith
- 18:29:55 [DanC]
- ADJOURN.
- 18:29:55 [Zakim]
- -Evan.Wallace
- 18:29:58 [Zakim]
- -??P38
- 18:30:00 [Zakim]
- -??P3
- 18:30:00 [Zakim]
- -Lassila
- 18:30:01 [Zakim]
- -??P1
- 18:30:03 [Zakim]
- -??P43
- 18:30:03 [Zakim]
- - +1.540.364.aacc
- 18:30:05 [ora]
- ora has left #webont
- 18:30:05 [Zakim]
- -MDean
- 18:30:05 [Zakim]
- -??P35
- 18:30:06 [Zakim]
- -??P39
- 18:30:07 [Zakim]
- - +44.196.266.aabb
- 18:30:08 [Zakim]
- -??P6
- 18:30:11 [Zakim]
- -DanC
- 18:30:13 [Zakim]
- -??P27
- 18:30:14 [Zakim]
- -??P41
- 18:30:20 [Zakim]
- -??P14
- 18:30:24 [Zakim]
- -IanH
- 18:30:30 [Zakim]
- -JonB
- 18:30:31 [Zakim]
- -Marwan.Sabbouh
- 18:30:50 [Zakim]
- -??P36
- 18:30:54 [Zakim]
- -JHendler
- 18:30:56 [Zakim]
- -Massimo
- 18:31:32 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, pointer?
- 18:31:32 [RRSAgent]
- See http://www.w3.org/2002/03/21-webont-irc#T18-31-32
- 18:32:54 [DanC]
- agenda?
- 18:33:14 [jhendler]
- jhendler has left #webont
- 19:19:01 [Zakim]
- -Enrico
- 19:19:02 [Zakim]
- SW_WebOnt()12:00PM has ended
- 19:29:56 [DanC]
- Zakim, excuse us
- 19:29:57 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #webont
- 19:30:03 [DanC]
- RRSAgent, excuse us