XML Protocol Working Group Teleconference Minutes 

Wednesday, 31 January 2001

Start time was 7am Australia, noon PST, 3pm EST, 8pm GMT, 9pm CET, duration 90 minutes. 

David Fallside, Chairman
Jeffrey Kay, Scribe

1. Roll call, scribes for minutes/action items (5 mins)

Roll call

PRESENT 46/36

Akamai Technologies Mark Nottingham principal
AT&T Mark Jones principal
AT&T Michah Lerner alternate
Bowstreet Alex Ceponkus alternate
Canon Herve Ruellan alternate
Compaq Yin-Leng Husband principal
Compaq Kevin Perkins alternate
DaimlerChrysler R. & Tech Mario Jeckle principal
Data Research Associates Mark Needleman principal
DataChannel Brian Eisenberg alternate
DevelopMentor Martin Gudgin principal
Engenia Software Jeffrey Kay principal
Engenia Software Eric Jenkins alternate
Epicentric Bjoern Heckel principal
Ericsson Research Canada Nilo Mitra principal
Fujitsu Software Corporation Kazunori Iwasa principal
Hewlett Packard Stuart Williams alternate
IBM David Fallside chair
IBM John Ibbotson principal
IONA Technologies Oisin Hurley principal
Jamcracker David Orchard principal
Lotus Development Noah Mendelsohn principal
Matsushita Electric Ryuji Inoue principal
Microsoft Corporation Henrik Nielsen principal
Microsoft Corporation Paul Cotton alternate
Mitre Marwan Sabbouh principal
Mitre Paul Denning alternate
Netscape Ray Whitmer alternate
Novell Scott Isaacson principal
OMG Henry Lowe principal
Oracle David Clay principal
Philips Research Yasser alSafadi principal
Philips Research Amr Yassin alternate
Progress Software Andrew Eisenberg principal
Rogue Wave Patrick Thompson alternate
SAP AG Volker Wiechers principal
Software AG Michael Champion principal
Sun Microsystems Mark Baker alternate
Tibco Frank DeRose principal
Unisys Lynne Thompson principal
Unisys Nick Smilonich alternate
Vitria Technology Inc. Waqar Sadiq principal
W3C Hugo Haas alt team contact
WebMethods Randy Waldrop principal
Xerox Tom Breuel primary
XMLSolutions Kevin Mitchell principal

AUTOMATICALLY EXCUSED

Bowstreet James Tauber principal
Canon Jean-Jacques Moreau principal
DaimlerChrysler R. & Tech Andreas Riegg alternate
DataChannel Mike Dierken primary
DevelopMentor Don Box alternate
Epicentric Dean Moses alternate
Fujitsu Software Corporation Masahiko Narita alternate
Hewlett Packard David Ezell principal
IBM Fransisco Cubera alternate
IONA Technologies Eric Newcomer alternate
Netscape Vidur Apparao principal
Oracle Jim Trezzo alternate
Progress Software Peter Lecuyer alternate
Rogue Wave Murali Janakiraman principal
SAP AG Gerd Hoelzing alternate
Software AG Dietmar Gaertner alternate
Sun Microsystems Ed Mooney principal
Vitria Technology Inc. Richard Koo alternate
W3C Yves Lafon team contact
XMLSolutions John Evdemon alternate

REGRETS

Active Data Exchange Richard Martin principal
Active Data Exchange Eric Fedok alternate
Allaire Glen Daniels principal
Calico Commerce Rekha Nagarajan principal
Cisco Krishna Sankar principal
Informix Software Soumitro Tagore alternate
Intel Randy Hall principal
Library of Congress Ray Denenberg principal
NCR Vilhelm Rosenqvist principal

ABSENT WITHOUT EXPLANATION

Allaire Simeon Simeonov alternate
Commerce One David Burdett principal
Commerce One Murray Maloney alternate
Group 8760 Dick Brooks ebXML contact
Informix Software Charles Campbell principal
Library of Congress Rich Greenfield alternate

2. Agenda review, call for AOB (5 mins)

Call for additional agenda items -- none proposed.

3. Approval of minutes from Jan 24 telcon [1] (5 mins)

4. Review action items, see [2] (10 mins) 

Action items includes mapping requirements to SOAP 1.1:

4.1 General Reqs, John Ibbotson -- done

4.2 Simplicity & Stability, David Ezell -- first pass draft posted to list

4.3 Data Encapapsulation, Oisin Hurley -- will generate another pass today or tomorrow and post

4.4 Intermediaries, Mark Nottingham -- sent out a first draft and already have comments

4.5 Data Representation, Paul Cotton -- has not done anything on list yet

4.6 Protocol Bindings, Oisin Hurley -- will generate another pass today or tomorrow and post

4.7 RPC, Vidur Apparao -- first pass posted

-- Send out details about meeting of the AMG, Stuart Williams
-- Telecon already occurred .

-- Send a write-up of the DS to be included in the editor's requirement document so that they are easier to discuss and refer to. Deadline EOB Monday, Nilo Mitra 
-- Still working on this. Will poll people directly. On going.

-- Include output from Nilo in the requirements document, Henrik Nielsen 
-- received list this morning but is incorporating now. Will be in by end of day today.

-- Write up discussion of DS5 - people to write up proposals to the list, John Ibbotson 
-- completed writeup of DS5

-- (Apparently there was an action item to John Ibbotson regarding DS7 but it did not appear in the previous minutes), John Ibbotson 
-- Modified post of DS7 posted to list.

5. Report on status of XML Protocol Spec document, Hugo/Yves Henrik (5 mins)

Hugo Haas -- sent out sanitized version last week but did not receive any comments.

Henrik Nielsen -- status of document must be clear that the document is not the SOAP spec replaced with "XP".  Henrik will announce this clearly to XML dist app.  Document uses XP acronym and will need to be updated.  

6. Report from Abstract Model Group (5 mins)

Report by Stuart Williams.  7 met by telecon yesterday.  Notes will be circulated with the WG.  Will try to meet again by phone next week.

David Fallside -- discussion minutes should be made available on xml-dist-app.  

Stuart Williams -- will share them accordingly.

7. Usage scenarios (50 minutes) 

-- DS5, see [3] 

Introduction by John Ibbotson -- posted revised version, received no comments yet.  

Discussion ensued on the use of the term "reliably".  Concern about the use of term and suggested that we have clarification.  Note that persistence may be implied. Store and forward was also mentioned.   

PROPOSAL (David Fallside):  Accept DS5 as written with a note indicating that "reliability" is not necessarily covered by XML Protocol. This DS5 should be put in the editor's copy as accepted.  (John Ibbotson to provide the note). 

POLL:  No dissent recorded.

-- DS6, [4] 

Introduction by John Ibbotson -- revision on this, received no comments.

Discission ensued.  Question on the payload being application specific.  Suggestion to split into multiple use cases even if a single implementation will cover several use cases. Some agreement there; use cases don't need to be generalized.  

PROPOSAL (David Fallside):  Accept DS6 as written. DS6 should be put in the editor's copy as accepted.

POLL: No dissent recorded.

-- DS7, [5] 

Introduction by John Ibbotson -- This one was sent in by Dick Brooks.  This looks like one particular case for use of an intermediary.

Discussion ensued.  Question about why this applies to XML Protocol;  the DS appears to be a service.  The intermediary may not act as a routing mechanism and instead the marketplace may play a business process role, e.g. a node in a workflow.  Concern expressed about the use of the term intermediary;  this DS doesn't clarify the term.  Part of the confusion may be that there is no definition of "intermediary".  There is a glossary definition in the requirements document.  Perhaps include the term "broadcast".  Question about whether the messages were sent back through the intermediary.  This seems to assume a request response message pattern.  Question about whether this is a useful use case for XML Protocol.  DS7 appears to imply that XML Protocol must cover state.  Suggestion to replace the term intermediary with broker or service. 

ACTION ITEM:  to John Ibbotson to assume ownership of DS7 as a top level scenario and accept input for derivative scenarios (e.g. 7a, 7b.),  with the term intermediary replaced with "broker" or "service".

ACTION ITEM: to Martin Gudgin to develop a proposal for an updated definition for the glossary term "intermediary".  To be completed by Tuesday morning.  

-- DS8, [6]

Introduction by John Ibbotson -- no discussion since posting of latest version.  Agenda shows incorrect URL.  Correct URL is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0087.html.

No discussion.

PROPOSAL (David Fallside):  Accept DS8 as written. DS8 should be put in the editor's copy as accepted.

POLL: No dissent recorded.

-- DS805, [7]

Glen Daniels (DS owner) was not available on this call to do an introduction.

Discussion ensued.  Question about using examples in the scenario.  There seems to be multiple issues.  Plurality of intermediaries, identity of callers, disparity of examples. 

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS805 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

-- DS807, [8]

Glen Daniels (DS owner) was not available on this call to do an introduction.

Discussion ensued.  Question about whether this DS should be rewritten in terms of the caller and recipient.  This DS seems much like an implementation.  This seems to be like traceroute or the SMTP receive trail. 

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS807 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

-- DS809, [9]

Glen Daniels (DS owner) was not available on this call to do an introduction.

Discussion ensued.  Question about who the client is.  Note to think about caching from a non-HTTP perspective.  Request from David Fallside to send concerns to Glen.

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS809 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

-- DS810, [10]

Introduction by Paul Denning

Discussion ensued.  Question about whether or not this is intermediary specific; conceivably any sender may want to do this.  Note that this DS seems to have a great deal of implementation included.  This seems to reference a previous DS that referenced reliability.  Suggestion to leave out QoS.  This appears to be a test of the ability to have an extension. 

ACTION ITEM: to Paul Denning to make changes to DS810 to accommodate given input. 

The following DS's did not get discussed during the teleconference due to time constraints:

9. Any Other Business (5 mins)

Meeting adjourned at 4:30 PM.

Summary of Action Items

ACTION ITEM:  to John Ibbotson to assume ownership of DS7 as a top level scenario and accept input for derivative scenarios (e.g. 7a, 7b.),  with the term intermediary replaced with "broker" or "service".

ACTION ITEM: to Martin Gudgin to develop a proposal for an updated definition for the glossary term "intermediary".  To be completed by Tuesday morning, 6 February 2001. 

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS805 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS807 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

ACTION ITEM: to David Fallside to send DS809 back to Glen Daniels for revision and re-presentation.

ACTION ITEM: to Paul Denning to make changes to DS810 to accommodate given input. 

References

[1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/1/01/24-pminutes
[2] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/Admin/#pending
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0185.html
[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0080.html
[5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0181.html
[6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0081.html
[7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0097.html
[8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0098.html
[9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0099.html
[10] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2001Jan/0100.html
[11] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0228.html
[12] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0231.html
[13] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0226.html
[14] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0229.html
[15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0230.html
[16] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0232.html
[17] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2000Dec/0229.html